This website calls out the NIV based on the fact that various verses are no longer present. The claim is that the NIV deleted these verses with the conclusion that the NIV is not to be trusted. I appreciate their appeal to want a complete Bible, to not tamper with God’s word, and an understanding that God does not want us manipulating his word, adding to it or taking away from it. Since we don’t have the original documents to work from there are differences in some texts. The question is, what is the best reconstruction of the original text in these instances? I did a little research into this to find out how the decision was made on the 45 (actually turns out to affect 49 verses) verses mentioned on the website. I first want to mention what the verses are:
Matthew 12:47 – This verse IS in the text of the NIV. What they don’t like is the fact that the NIV has a footnote that says, “Some manuscripts do not have verse 47”
Matthew 17:21 – In the footnotes, “But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.”
Matthew 18:11 – In the footnotes, “The Son of Man came to save what was lost.”
Matthew 21:44 – Present but a footnote reads, “Some manuscripts do not have verse 44.”
Matthew 23:14 – In the footnotes, “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Therefore you will be punished more severely.”
Mark 7:16 – In the footnotes, “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Mark 9:44 & 9:46 – In the footnotes, “where / ” ‘their worm does not die, / and the fire is not quenched.”
Mark 11:26 – In the footnotes, “But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your sins.”
Mark 15:28 – In the footnotes, “and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “He was counted with the lawless ones” (Isaiah 53:12).”
Mark 16:9-20 – This is in the text with a disclaimer that reads, “The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.
Luke 17:36 – In the footnotes, “Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.”
Luke 22:43-44 – These verses ARE in the text of the NIV. There is a footnote saying some manuscripts do not contain them.
Luke 23:17 – In the footnotes, “Now he was obliged to release one man to them at the Feast.”
John 5:3b-4 – In the footnotes, “paralyzed—and they waited for the moving of the waters. 4 From time to time an angel of the Lord would come down and stir up the waters. The first one into the pool after each such disturbance would be cured of whatever disease he had.”
John 7:53-8:11 – Again, these verses ARE in the text but have a line and a note saying, “The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.”
Acts 15:34 – In the footnotes, “but Silas decided to remain there”
Acts 24:6b-8a – In the footnotes, “him and wanted to judge him according to our law. 7 But the commander, Lysias, came and with the use of much force snatched him from our hands 8 and ordered his accusers to come before you. By”
Acts 28:29 – In the footnotes, “29 After he said this, the Jews left, arguing vigorously among themselves.”
Romans 16:24 – In the footnotes, “24 May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you. Amen.”
1 John 5:7b-8a – In the footnotes, “Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)”
I appreciate the work they did compiling these verses. There are a couple of adjustments that were made to their list that made it a little more accurate. I also want to mention that all the verses mentioned are found in the NIV the question is whether or not they should be relegated to footnotes. There are many reasons the NIV committee decided to do that and I think it is important to realize that it wasn’t done haphazardly. I also want to mention that there are no doctrines that hinge on these verses and much of what is there is found in other places. Obviously that is no reason to say it is alright to remove verses otherwise we could remove much of the synoptic gospels as their content is found in each of the others. Is this a reason to throw out the NIV or were these good decisions? We will spend some time examining those questions.
For more information on how translators make these decisions see my post The Case of the Missing Verse (John 5:4) for more details. Here is the gist,
The 1611 KJV was translated from roughly a dozen manuscripts that were copied around 1200 AD…In the last 400 years we have found another 3000+ manuscripts that date back within 100 years of the originals and in those earlier/older manuscripts there are around 50 verses that are not there. Taking them out, then, gets us closer to the originals. No one is purposefully making the Bible LESS accurate. This is about making the Bible MORE accurate based on improved evidence over the last 400 years since the KJV was translated. This is a good thing, not a bad thing.
297 Responses
Either those verses belong in the Bible or they don’t. It’s hard to determine, but the NIV at least gives the average person the tools to think about the matter.
It doesn’t mean we cannot trust the Bible. It means that we have to be careful about figuring out what is the Bible.
John,
So what do you propose we do with the thousands of textual variants that are present in basically every one of the 3000+ manuscripts available? There are decisions people have to make on which was original and which was not because manuscripts have differences. Most are extremely small differences and some are a little more important and significant. So what do you propose we do with those?
Hey Matt….How do you explain the NIV changing the verse in Daniel3:25? Changing God to gods? Compare to KJV. That’s pretty major don’t you agree?
Thank You,
Steve
Here is a link from a KJV only website, where the intent is to uphold the KJV that sides with the NIV on this. They sum up the evidence on this one well enough without me having to re-explain everything – https://www.kjvonly.org/doug/kutilek_son_of_god.htm
If you still have questions let me know and I will do some more study.
Not sure they were referring to the Son of God
yes The king ,,,was not a believer in the one true God.he believed in many gods…son of the gods is correct because that is what the king believed…
Matt dabs, i notice you kinda have the spirit of Anti Christ. Well done.
The last thing that we have to depend on is the word of God, and you under the guidance of satanic powers with NIV side of the Bible overcoming you, speaking lies to us. Jesus spoke about such once like you.
May God have mercy.
From someone commenting as anonymous? I can’t take that seriously.
I completely agree with anonymous, I highly doubt The Lord would allow his word to be buried for hundreds if not a 1000 years then one day be revealed in modern day haha… I bet yall believe there is gonna be a pre tribulation Rapture too huh?? YOU GUYS ARE SO BLIND TO THE GREATEST DECEPTION KNOWN TO MAN KIND.. YOU GUYS ARE PUPPETS IN SATAN’S GAME… The person who published the NIV Bible is the same person that published the satanic bible… Do your research before you talk.. They also published the entitled ” The joy of gay sex” . You believe in the Supernatural of God and His angels but yiu don’t want to believe the Supernatural of the devil and his Ha deceived… Satan is in control of all things on this earth remember that.. God uses him to separate the wheat from the tare… Stay blessed.
You did understand the verse in Peter? There words of take by the Holy Spirit. It not added nor deleted. It is perfect.
Freaking wake up your mind
Hi matt. I felt the urge to write you and tell you how much I truly appreciate this article, even being years old this has helped me more than you will ever know. I hope you get this. I have been studying the bible for quite some time and the version I go to is the king james because I felt as if it was more accurate. I compare different bibles and felt angered as I noticed scriptures being taken out of newer versions…….my my how all these comments have opened my eyes. I am always open to seeing views of others whether I agree or not. Everyone is so focused on proving their religion, beliefs or bibles that focus is lost on the true focus point. (Satan distracts in all ways he can) so when I started reading these comments I was so astonished to see how many people attacked you without even attempting to see your point. I spent a long time reading these comments and couldn’t stop. Being on the outside looking in I see where the problems are of this world, I see the veil satan puts on peoples eyes and I am so fortunate to be able to see and understand what a blessing I have received. I have to add that through all the comments (mean, hateful, etc.) You never once was rude, angered, disrespectful or trying to pursuade. You simply stated facts. And what I know from God’s word is patience……you definitely hold that. So with the comments of debate I did some research of my own to see truth for myself, I’m not one for believing the words of people because I know false prophets are among us. I go to the bible. What baffled me on one of these comments was that someone brought up isaiah 14:12 asking why the newer version said jesus is lucifer. When I looked it up I said to myself WOWW the blindness. Because this is not referring to jesus at all. This scripture means the same in both just worded differently. I had an awakening from this Matt and this is from your article. Just know you atleast helped me on this and I am grateful. I realized this happens everywhere and while everyone is blinded by trying to prove everyone wrong it distracts from the word of god, it distracts from the truth. Bravo on your explanations about different translations cause going further back in time that’s what they all are TRANSLATIONS of different people. I would love to just sit down with you sometime and have coffee and hear your wisdom. It’s not often I see truth in a person. God bless you keep doing what your doing. Some will see the impact you presented and others never will, but don’t stop. Sincerely, Nicole
And the comment was in Isaiah 14:12 asking why they referred Satan as a star. Well before he was cast out of heaven he was a star, if only true knowledge people could receive
Nicole, when I saw a notification of a comment on this post I thought “oh boy…here we go!” and then I read what you wrote and was profoundly touched. Thank you sister. May God richly bless you for your search for Him and for the truth. I am greatly blessed by what you wrote! Keep it up! You have eyes to see…and see!
It’s OBVIOUS, Satan is a Liarrr!!! Only Use, The Original Trusted, KJV BIBLE.. All Others are TAINTED and Omits God’s Holy Words, in Order to Entrap, Snares-of an DECEIVE US, CHRISTIANS. 《 777 》
WHOLE Bible verses deleted in the NIV
The following WHOLE verses have been removed in the NIV–whether in the text or footnotes…over 40 IN ALL!!!
Matthew 12:47 — removed in the footnotes
Matthew 17:21 — COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?
“Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.”
Matthew 18:11 — COMPLETELY removed What are you NIV readers missing?
“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.”
Matthew 21:44 — removed in the footnotes
Matthew 23:14 — COMPLETELY removed What are you NIV readers missing?
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.”
Mark 7:16 — COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?
“If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.”
Mark 9:44 — COMPLETELY removed What are you NIV readers missing?
“Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Mark 9:46 — COMPLETELY removed What are you NIV readers missing?
“Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Mark 11:26 — COMPLETELY removed What are you NIV readers missing?
“But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
Mark 15:28 — COMPLETELY removed What are you NIV readers missing?
“And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.”
Mark 16:9-20 (all 12 verses) — There is a line separating the last 12 verses of Mark from the main text. Right under the line it says: [The two most reliable early manuscripts do not have Mark 16:9-20] (NIV, 1978 ed.)
Luke 17:36 — COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?
“Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
Luke 22:44 — removed in the footnotes
Luke 22:43 — removed in the footnotes
Luke 23:17 — COMPLETELY removed . What are you NIV readers missing?
“(For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)”
John 5:4 — COMPLETELY removed What are you NIV readers missing?
“For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.”
John 7:53-8:11 — removed in the footnotes
Acts 8:37 — COMPLETELY removed It’s deletion makes one think that people can be baptized and saved without believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Sounds Catholic. What are you NIV readers missing?
“And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
Acts 15:34 — COMPLETELY removed ]. What are you NIV readers missing?
“Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.”
Acts 24:7 — COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?
“But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,”
Acts 28:29 — COMPLETELY removed . What are you NIV readers missing?
“And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.”
Romans 16:24 — COMPLETELY removed. What are you NIV readers missing?
“The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.”
I John 5:7 — Vitally important phrase COMPLETELY removed. In the NIV
get your Greek orthodox Bible the right way over 2000 years same bible and they do the same over and over and may miracles in the church may OUR Lord Jesus Christ Bless you all
2 questions for you:
1 – why did the NIV translation committee (as well as subsequent other translation committees on other translations) “remove” these verses?
2 – what doctrines are compromised and parts of the Gospel compromised if we never had these words in these particular verses?
MATT DABBS
I KNOW THAT YOU KNEW HOW TO PRAY, I CHALLENGED YOU TO PRAY AND ASK JESUS CHRIST TO OPEN UP UR SPIRITUAL EYES BY YOURSELF
DOCTRINES IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE!
ITS THE MISSING VERSE WHICH OUR ENEMY DOES IT FOR US TO BE BLIND THE TRUTH ABOUT,
Hello Matt,
Paul refers to the false teaching of the folks from Alexandria . The “earlier versions” which were discovered, the ones that don’t have certain text were from this group of people. They did not belive Jesus could have been in a real flesh body. This led to many errors in doctrine and they actually altered “their” version of the epistles. I imagine that you know this. Im curious why has this not been discussed. Thanks
Tom,
Which verse are you referring to where Paul calls out false teaching from Alexandria?
Second, which manuscripts are you talking about, which variants in those manuscripts are you talking about and which doctrines are compromised by those specific variants?
All of that would be necessary to substantiate your point. Thanks for the conversation!
I definitely AGREE!
same here
The Fact remains who stands to benefit from people “fixing” something that wasn’t broke the AV bible ?
The Fact remains has America become better since people in their pride started changing the AV version ?
The Fact remains you have this verse written so a 7 year old could understand
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
What is the fruit of the publisher of the NIV ?
Lets see Zondervan publishers is owned by harper Collins which also produces the satanic bible
Mat_7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat_7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
The question I ask you is whether you would rather go into battle with a dull sword or a razor sharp sword ? Or put another way would you rather cut a steak with one of those plastic butter knives or a sharp steak knife ?
Eze 33:31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
Would you rather to the words of Jesus Christ as written by the Holy SPIRIT through the millions of martyrs that died bringing the AV1611 through history for the english speaking folks or some modern prideful man who wants to justify sin ?
I am NOT for placing prince james or those translators on a pedestal seeing they are just men .
I AM therefore AGAINST 1000% changing something that is NOT BROKEN and has born UNMEASUREABLE amount of FRUIT to the Glory of Jesus Christ
What fruit has all these MODERN “translations” brought ?
CONFUSION AMUNG THE ISRAEL OF THE CREATOR , which according to the HOLY BIBLE is not of the CREATOR but the DEVIL
1Co_14:33 For GOD is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
This should be a simple matter for a sincere follower of Jesus Christ , but biblical discernment is very lacking in these days , all seem to want to follow teachers rather than the Holy SPIRIT
Zondervan doesn’t publish NIV anymore it is Harper Collins.. They have some books and one is titled the joy of homosexuality..
That is interesting, Tim, because neither Amazon or Worldcat seems to know anything about that book.
The book is the joy of gay sex. Joshua Jeffrey should please check
Unfortunately, Joshua, a quick look @ Google does reveal
“The Joy of Gay Sex” is out there still available via the publisher.
That said…how many of you who disdain the NIV watch Fox News? Both HarperCollins and Fox News Channel are part of the larger News Corporation. You just can’t win.
I agree with you all the way. I became a born again Christian when I was a pre-teen . Didn’t really start to understand God’s word till in my 30’s. I purchased a NIV because I couldn’t understand the KJV. I just found out two weeks ago that verses were taken out. I was so disappointed because I thought that finally I’ve found a bible that I can understand. Do you know of a bible like KJV that I can purchase? One that I can understand in our time. I’m really trying to get my life together and follow how Jesus want us to live. Thank
Nikki look for bible septuagint Greek and English or the orthodox new testament the holy gospel volume 1 and 2 , I like KJV the one print before 1900 and still not 100% same the original Greek translate
Nikki, in case you didn’t catch the nature of what is going on with these verses…the KJV included verses that had later been added to the Bible. They included those verses because those verses were in the manuscripts from the 1200s that the KJV translators had at their disposal. Well, now we have manuscripts that are 1000 years older than what the KJV/AV translators have and there are verses that were not there originally that have now, rightfully, been removed in the newer translations. So your NIV is just fine. It is actually MORE accurate in this regard than the KJV. I hope that makes sense. Feel free to ask any questions you might have.
The expository study Bible by Jimmy Swaggart is a verse by verse translation of the KJV and it’s excellent.
Rev. 22:18 the warning was referring to the prophecy of revelations or the book of revelations, not the whole bible, since the Bible hadn’t been put together yet when the book of revelations was given to peter.
Now I’m not condoning adding or removeing any scripture from any of the books of the Bible, I’m trying to address people who keep mis interpreting Revelations 22:18 as if the authorized King James Version descended from heaven in in book form from Genesis to Revelations and landed in the hands of Moses or something, and has been kept safe until now. please stop it. Rev. 22:18 was referring to the book of Revelations, warning people from adding or removing from the prophecy of the book of Revelation. Now if you want, we can have a discussion on what’s missing out of Revelations. That’s a whole other topic I’m happy to discuss.
Em! No they deleted truths from the Bible contrary to Deut. 4:2.
Robert, in case you didn’t get to read the post and all 200+ comments here is the gist:
The KJV was translated from roughly a dozen manuscripts that were made around 1200 AD…In the last 400 years we have found another 3000+ manuscripts that date back within 100 years of the originals and in those earlier/older manuscripts there are around 50 verses that are not there. Taking them out, then, gets us closer to the originals. This is not about deleting truth, brother.
Why then is the KJV known as the majority text?
And the 3000+ manuscripts are not complete manuscripts, but portions, some of which are only a page in size.
Also it was the Vaticanus text which has largely influenced the new versions. The Vatican say they had is stored and they claim it is the oldest text available and therefore the most accurate, but why should we trust their word?
The NIV should be known as the New Age Version as it promotes the idea of oneness with God, an idea NOT present in the KJV.
Great question Fred…I cannot reply directly as your reply is too far into the replies but this will put my comment beneath your so hopefully you will see it.
The KJV is not known as the Majority Text. The Majority text is Greek, not English and is not an actual, stand alone discovered text. It is a compilation of the existing texts they had before the time of the KJV. Let’s say they had 10 Greek manuscripts and you go word by word seeing which words appear in each verse most frequently across the text. You compile a text with the “majority” reading on any given word or phrase. It is like constructing a manuscript where each time a word is used in the texts they had that word gets a vote. The words with the most votes/highest count won and the text that was formed out of all the other texts they had is called the Majority text (that is why it is called Majority). Remember, they only had a few texts to work from to do this.
Second, the KJV is not based off of the Majority text. It is based off of the Textus Receptus (Received Text) that Erasmus and Basel compiled from the texts they had at their disposal. The TR was what Tyndale used that later had great influence on the KJV. There are places in the TR that have ZERO textual support in any known Greek text. For instance, Erasmus didn’t have any manuscripts that had the end of Revelation so he actually backwards translated from English into his own Greek to create his own Greek text of those verses…the irony being those are the verses that say don’t add or take away! So the TR, that the KJV is based off of is generally pretty good but has some significant issues.
So if you are talking KJV you are talking about the Textus Receptus of Erasmus and Basel.
Third, you brought up problems with the other 3000+ manuscripts that we have found since 1611 as a growing wealth of evidence makes things worse. Actually the number is more than 3000…it is 5839 Greek manuscripts if you want an exact count totally 2.6 million pages (according to Daniel Wallace who has digitized 300k pages so far and working on trying to digitize the rest). Do you know what the average length of those manuscripts are? 459 pages long (handwritten, of course). So bringing up that scraps exist does nothing to help your argument…the facts dismantle your argument, if you are interested in facts…which I assume you are.
If you have an hour, please watch Wallace’s presentation…it is eye opening – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMWGloVfMF0
That fact (more evidence) doesn’t hurt us. It helps us. Needless to say that means we have far more resources at our disposal than the KJV translators had. What is more if you read the original KJV “preface to the reader” they very much understood that their translation would have issues, wasn’t perfect and wasn’t to be understood as perfect…that more work would be needed. They were correct, prophetic even. That is often missed. They did the best they could with the limited resources they had…resulting in, considering all of this, a really good translation in its day.
As far as Vaticanus’ influence on the NIV or newer versions…please be specific. Where do you find that particular manuscripts distorting a particular translation. Please tell….details please. More hype is all that is. We have enough NT from the early church fathers alone to reconstruct the entire Greek New Testament…not to mention the 5000+ Greek manuscripts already mentioned.
Last, it is important to know that our understanding of Greek has vastly improved over the last 400 years. Did you know that as of 1881 there were hundreds and hundreds of words (I am trying to dig up the exact number which I have in some notes but not with me) that were unique to the Greek New Testament just 135 years. But in the last 135 via archaological discovery of both biblical texts and extra-biblical texts more and more of those words have been found, in context which aids our understanding of Koine Greek that was used in the NT. Now there are around 50 words that are unique to the Greek NT. The KJV translators didn’t know any of that when they did their work.
All that to say, the information doesn’t help your cause or support your point here. If you have any questions I am glad to answer…if I can find that number of unique words from 1881 I will post it…it was either just shy of 500 or 800…I cannot remember which off the top of my head.
I can only see the pursuit of human knowledge leading to foolishness here. If we can only leave the bible the way it was that will be fantastic
Matt. Do you realise NIV disregard Jesus as son of God and disregard fasting and prayer, are you defending this to right
Completely false. This has been proven false again and again. D.A. Carson charts the questionable verses and in every case the NIV translates in favor of Jesus’ divinity even more consistently than other English translations. Please explain where you are coming from. This myth needs to die.
I thought there was 16 verses that were not there, so how do we account for the other11 verses taken out of the NIV?, just asking.
Textual criticism will continue until the Lord returns. And we will debate those verses until the Lord returns. 🙂 I’m reasonably sure that none of those affect any doctrine, major or minor, in the NT. Not saying that means we can ignore them if we choose, just saying that the debate is over the inclusion of those verses and not on the reliability of the NT.
Thanks for your input Bob. If you go to the link above you will see why I want to use this as an avenue to address this. There is that same old uninformed mindset at work that doesn’t understand things like textual criticism. They just see “missing” verses and think the Bible has been corrupted rather than ask the question of whether or not those verses were original. I will be spending more time here on those verses.
I love the KJV. If there is an older bible that I would not be condemned in reading that contains Gods word in it , I would. The word of God is so sacred and precious that it should not be conformed. We should be so careful in handling God’s word.God does not change.
May want to try the Bishop’s Bible from the 1500s. The KJV is based off that
I am NO fan of the KJV! There are many earlier English versions. People need to look historically the slant and angle it was ordered to take: to support the church in England! Please do not think this is the “mother” of all Bibles. At the heart of all the matter is salvation. Languages change and evolve and there is nothing wrong with adapting modern to modern language if the current generation understands it. You’ll never win someone over today who has no knowledge of the bible if you continue to use thee’s and thou’s.
I have referred numerous “KJV” folks to D. A. Carson’s The King James Version Debate. This book opens the eyes wide for those who are willing to see beyond the fog of web sites like you’ve mentioned. Also, for those wanting detailed enlightenment on the subject you have broached, Metzger’s The Text of the New Testament is invaluable.
Peace.
No major doctrine is at risk with any of the verses up for debate in textual criticism. A disciple can still hold to inerrancy and not worry about those “missing” verses although I prefer that translations do as the New American Standard (NASB) and add them with brackets.
Jeremiah, I would really suggest you read my post on the Case of the Missing Verse (John 5:4). That should be helpful in understanding how and why these decisions are made by translators. Thanks for reading here at Kingdom Living.
im not impressed you no in the bible it says there will be false teaching in the word of god well this is one of them this bible is not right!!!! the end times are comming brothers and sisters, watch out for false teachings! god bless you all
Jess,
Thanks for stopping by and voicing your opinion. It is always welcome here. I am not asking that anyone be impressed. I am just telling the story of how this occurred in as objective way as I know how. Sorry we disagree on it. God bless.
Jess,
The more I thought about your comment it made me wish you would at least make a case for what you are saying. If you are going to call me a false teacher I think it needs to come with some evidence and with scripture to back it up rather than just toss dangerous words around like that. Let’s be fair with these kinds of things.
While I probably do not agree with either of theologically, I do appreciate your response to his comments – let’s “back it up rather than just toss dangerous words around like that.”
My problem with this I guess is that when we add or delet things from the bible it give non belivers more ammo to fire at us how are we to answer questions about this is there a good reason why these writtings are taken out of any bible last time I checked there was only one God why so many versions of his word?
Upon1CBR,
The reason we have so many versions is because we don’t have the originals. Over time we find various tiny differences in some manuscripts that show things have changed to a very slight degree over time. If we had the originals we wouldn’t have to figure this out but we have copies of copies and so we try our best to figure out as close as possible what the original was.
those arent just ‘little’ or ‘tiny’ differences. Removing whole verses is removing whole messages. To say ‘but these are only removed through prayer and fasting’ is VERY important. It allows us to know that we can’t rely on prayer alone, but fasting is also essential.
you probably shouldnt be advocating the removal of portions of scripture…
Thank you for your comment and your insights, especially regarding fasting and prayer. I guess you missed the logic of the post and of translators decisions on whether or not certain verses should be removed. Let’s say you were translating the Bible from 10 Greek manuscripts that all dated from 900 AD to 1100 AD (which is basically the case of the KJV translation). Later on you discover a couple of dozen (in reality hundreds) of manuscripts dating from 200 AD to 500 AD that consistently don’t have a couple of the verses in the manuscripts from 900-1100. What do you do? Wouldn’t it be logical to assume that maybe those verses weren’t in the originals?
So it is not a matter of removing legitimate portions of scripture. It is removing verses that weren’t there to begin with that earlier translators just didn’t have old enough manuscripts to understand. Hope that helps. Always, glad to talk more if you like.
Matt
Matt
I find suspect that ‘early’ versions ‘skipped’ verses in order of numbering eg from 20- 22 without 21 included especially considering content in some of the skipped verses but included in others. I also find it suspect that niv which is credited of changing several other phrases chose to stick with those ‘early’ manuscripts same as new world translation. Some of those manuscripts dont even have the book of revelation so I wonder if niv might go ahead and exclude the whole book.
I assume you are referring to Matthew 17:21. It is a common error for a copyist to insert from memory a phrase from another synoptic that doesn’t have textual support in their text. That easily happens from memory when copying by someone very familiar with the Gospels. Then their insertion is copied by everyone who copies their mistake. That isn’t suspicious at all.
On the New World Translation…which passages do you have in mind? I am not certain about that. It could very well be the New World Translation actually translated something correctly! Hard to say unless you point us to a few examples of what you are talking about.
On Revelation…I am taking that as a joke. Some manuscripts are fragments of a few verses…I guess we throw out all the Bible except for whatever fragment we find handy?
The NIV has deleted verses. What about all the books (texts rather ) that were left out of the bible. Constantine deemed those texts to be heresy and they were banned by the early church.
The problem is not that the NIV eliminated the verses, but that the KJV added them to start with.
Exactly. But not that they knowingly or maliciously added them. Those verses were in the newer manuscripts that they had in their possession to translate from.
Sonya,
You do realize the KJV is a translation just like the NIV and the rest, right? They had to read the Hebrew and Greek and translate it into the English of their day just like modern scholars have had to do for the newer translations. Why do you think the KJV writers got it right and the rest got it wrong? Can you tell me what specifically made them immune from making the errors people today make? Can you prove it from scripture? I really would like to know.
Mattdabbs,
On your analogy that the KJV is “just like” the NIV in the translation process from Hebrew and Greek to English. I would hasten to disagree with your logic on this matter when in the NIV TRANSLATOR’S PREFACE say’s the following (describing the translators) “they have striven for more than a word-for-word translation”. When a translator seeks more than a word-for-word translation, it is a interpretation, not a translation. The KJV in contrast of the NIV is a Word-for-Word translation.
Thank you for your comment…you missed the point I was making and it is simply this – they are both translations. That is all I was saying…not that they are just alike in what their content or approach but that they are just alike only as far as they are both translations of the original languages.
The more I have looked at this I have actually decided that I got that wrong. The KJV was actually a revision of the Bishop’s bible and was not an original translation. So my original point you are quoting here was wrong from the start. This is why some call it the King James Bible rather than the King James Version. So I was wrong but not in the way you are saying. The two are very different.
Last, I don’t guess you realize that all translation, even revision, calls for interpretation. It is impossible to translate without interpreting the meaning of the text. I am guessing you haven’t ever translated the Bible into English or another language before? This is Bible translation 101 – translation requires interpretation. There is just no way around it. A perfectly literal, word for word translation would be horribly hard to read. Check out my Bible study links above and go to the Greek-English interlinear and read the literal English word-for-word words below each Greek word and see how you do. That is a literal, word for word translation…see how much interpretation you have to do in order to put the meaning of the sentences together. That even leaves out the hard part of translation and that is figuring out which potential meaning of the word fits in that particular context. It all requires interpretation. This is not mathematics. Hope that helps.
How about the Codex Vaticanus used in the niv this perverted manuscript contains the books of the pagan Aprocrypha,which are not scripture. It was (DISCOVERED IN THE POPE’S LIBRARY IN 1481)and the sinaiticus (DISCOVERED IN 1859 IN A TRASH CAN AT ST. CATHERINE’S MONASTERY ON MT. SINAI) these are the texts the occult believers westcott and hort used for their translation. Please look up the nineteenth century occult revival the legacy of westcott and hort. then go to westcott and hort: translators beliefs. look up Dr. Virginia Mollenkott and see what she was all about and what part she played into the niv. (clue she is a homosexual.) look up Kittel he wrote the dictionary used in translating the niv (clue he was a nazi soldier under hitler attacking and killing jews ) look up Dr. Marten Woudstra chairman of the niv old testament committee (clue he was a homosexual). This is not slander this is fact. association with the satanic bible. The lists goes on and on. please look up this info. As far as what verses left out bothers me most I would say all of them actually. It doesnt matter what the niv left out it is where it came from that bothers me most.
Sonya,
Thank you for looking into these things further. I have a few thoughts in response to some of the things you wrote for you to consider…
Vaticanus & Sinaiticus:
What evidence do you have that Vaticanus is a perverted manuscript? Please cite some evidence. Because someone included the Apocrypha doesn’t devalue the rest of the text. This is going to surprise you…the 1611 KJV contained the apocrypha! Does that devalue the KJV and make it “corrupt”? To cite this as a reason to see Vaticanus as corrupt is to call the KJV corrupt. Neither of us are willing to do so and so we have to reevaluate why you are seeing Vaticanus as a problem in the translating of the NIV.
Second, does it matter where a manuscript ended up (Pope’s library, trash can in a monastary being burnt by people who didn’t understand what it was?). Manuscripts have no control over where they end up or what people do to them. You say Sinaiticus is corrupt because it was found in a trash can. What if I took a KJV and through it in a trash can? Would that make the KJV any less valuable to you? Or would it reflect more on the person who threw it away? That wouldn’t make the KJV any more or less corrupt based on where you find the text.
As far as people who are associated with the NIV…every translation has the same problem. Did you know King James I, who commissioned the KJV was a homosexual and was said of him, “Elizabeth was King, now James is Queen”? Look up Esmé Stuart, Earl of Lennox. Does that bother you? Isn’t that on the same page with the things you have cited against the NIV? And yet I seriously doubt you will toss aside the KJV even though these things are fact. I wouldn’t expect you to and so, I wouldn’t expect you to toss out the NIV for similar evidence.
Here is my point. All translations are going to have ties to things we disagree with or object to. That is not the standard for what makes a good translation. A good translation is what is found in the text. So let’s move this discussion to the next step and discuss the text if you have the time. Thank you for your thoughts on this matter. I hope we can talk about it more.
Sonya,
Thank you so much for doing what many don’t do and that is go to the text. I do wish you would address any of the points I brought up rather than just writing over it. Will you respond to any of my points before bringing up new ones? I apologize for saying that because I am the one who asked to move to the text but I hoped that in your response you might first deal with the points I made in my response to you.
As far as gnosticism and the NIV it is a very tenuous connection. You cannot prove that translational decision goes back to Sinaiticus or Vaticanus (which are the same as Aleph and B that you mention in this post like they are different texts than those you previously mentioned). The point the NIV is emphasizing in Phil 2:6 is not that Jesus wasn’t God or equal with God. The NIV makes that very, very clear in dozens of other places that Jesus is equal with God. Why not cite some of those? You don’t because it would disprove your view of the NIV. The point they are bringing out in Phil 2:6 is the “grasped” part, not the “equal” part. They are saying yes Jesus was equal with God but his attitude toward that fact was one that he was not eagerly clinging to his own divinity. Instead he had the attitude of submission and obedience that led him to the cross (see the context of Phil 2:6 and you will see that). Hope that helps. Again, thanks for doing your homework. It would be great if you would respond to what some of the points…oh and thanks for looking into the James, homosexual issue…but it seems you overlooked a lot in your study to find someone saying what you wanted to hear. Maybe I am wrong on that one but as far as I can tell from history I believe I am correct. But even if he was gay, it doesn’t disqualify the KJV from being a good translation (which it is).
There is ample evidence that James was a homosexual but you skipped right over my point…that really doesn’t matter in whether or not the translation itself is accurate whether the KJV or the NIV. But I am sure you will refuse to believe it because you are not willing to change your presuppositions when presented with facts that challenge them. Until you are willing to change your mind when presented with facts (many that I have mentioned above that you still haven’t addressed or responded to) then it is hard to take the conversation further than having two people talk past each other. Hope that makes sense.
Phil 2:6 was a verse proving the deity of Christ not that they were grasped. Explain this verse out of your niv book. Isaiah 14:12 Niv states “How you have fallen from heaven,O MORNING STAR,son of dawn. KJV states “How art thou fallen from heaven, O LUCIFER,
son of the morning!” Now your book just described Satan as being christ by calling satan MORNING STAR
i will prove this by this verse in the niv. Rev. 22:16 “I Jesus,have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the Offspring of
David, and the bright MORNING STAR. KJV of Rev.22:16” I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offfspring of David, and the bright and MORNING STAR.
So you can see that your book contradicts itself my calling lucifer,MORNING STAR in that verse. Am I right?
Come on you can admit it. It is right there right in your book.. Right there is another Gnostic corruption in your niv book. That is two so far and counting.
Sonya,
That is a classic argument used against the NIV and it is based on some false assumptions. I am not going to rewrite everything on this as I have already dealt with exactly this same argument regarding Isaiah 14:12 and Rev 22. Please read the comments on this post – https://mattdabbs.wordpress.com/2007/08/29/why-everyone-should-use-the-niv/
Colin’s comment makes the same point you are…please read his comment and then my response. Here is how I responded:
“Now to your example. You are contending that the NIV is basically of the anti-Christ because it gives the same title to Jesus as it does to the devil (Isa 14:12, Rev 22:16). Let’s look at this a little closer.
KJV – “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”
What is even more important is the Hebrew. The word translated Lucifer by the KJV and “Morning Star” by the NIV is the word הֵילֵל (heilel). That word literally means “shining one” as the verb form means “to shine.” It is not a word that means satan or the devil in Hebrew. The word Lucifer is how the Latin Vulgate translated this word, which the KJV adopted. Lucifer in Latin is a combination of two words Lux = light and ferous = “to bear” or “to carry” which would make Lucifer = bearer of light in Latin.
Context in Isa 14:
The Hebrew word heilel was an epithet or title for the king of Babylon. Look back at Isa 13:1 – “An oracle concerning Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw.” (NIV). Isaiah 13 speaks of the destruction of Babylon (see especially 13:19). Chapter 14 continues this message. 14:1-3 is about the return from exile back to Israel. Then notice 14:4 – “You will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:” The taunt seems to go from 14:4b-8. Then 14:9 talks about the grave meeting them at their coming. Meeting who? The same people the taunt was against – Babylon. Then 14:11-23 is more about Babylon – your pomp has been brought down, maggots are spread out beneath you, worms cover you….how you have fallen from heaven shining one, son of the dawn.” When you look at this in context, understanding it from Hebrew and not the Latin Vulgate’s interpretation (which was colored by several hundred years of Christian interpretation of his passage as being about Satan) you begin to see that it is really about the king of Assyria and not Satan or Lucifer. You find similar language against the king of Tyre in Ezek 28. This passage is about a real situation – the oppression and exile of God’s people and their oppression by the Babylonian rulers. God is calling for their fall. Isaiah calls him “son of the dawn.” It is a parallel to a star that rises high and bright in the sky at morning but then disappears quickly. That is what the king of Babylon will be like. It was early Christian writers who associated this passage with Satan, not anyone in scripture.
This is the problem with word study – it strips words out of contexts and ends up at meanings that were never intended. You do a word study on Lucifer in the KJV with a concordance and you see Lucifer and Jesus have the same titles. That is a translation problem with the Latin Vulgate and the KJV and not with the NIV. The NIV translated the Hebrew word in a much more literal way than the KJV even though the KJV is often the one touted to be so literal.”
And then…
“Why is it different in Isa 14 and Rev 22? One is Greek and one is Hebrew. The phrasing of Rev 22 is not even close to the same as Isa 14:12, which is a point you correctly made. In Revelation 22:16 (not 22:19) it does have the word star. It literally reads “the star bright morning” or “The bright morning star.”
So lets get to it. Isa 14:12 says “The shining one son of the dawn”
Rev 22:16 says “I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright shining star.”
Your whole point is the NIV calls Lucifer Jesus in Isa 14. The only commonality between these verses is the concept of someone being luminous (shining one vs bright shining star). The NIV is not trying to pass Lucifer off as Jesus. The NIV recognizes the context of these verses, which you apparently still do not recognize, that Isa 13-14 is about Babylon and not Lucifer/Satan.”
Sonya,
If you read the comments on that post you will basically find the exact conversation that you and I would probably have here. I hope it is helpful to you. Thanks again for your thoughts.
This is the comment I was referring to. And now that I just read again I see it that it is not referring to Satan WOWW. That just shows how context is taken out of content and I was guilty of this one since I didn’t read the whole chapter. Thanks again for the eye opener.
To answer your question about how I feel about the niv leaving out verses I consider those the lucky ones for sure. At least they dont have to be butchered up and worded however the translators wanted God’s word to mean. Really this is a perfect book on how false teaching can happen. God warned us of such things and I always wanted to know how the very elite in Christ could be fooled now I know. By using God’s very own words and taking out to make it totally mean something different altogether. I am glad I am not one of those translators or followers of these false teachings. I know it is hard to see that your book has many flaws in it and contradicts itself time and time again. It also has just enough truth to fool alot of people. Sorry if I upset you I meant no harm. Just from the very beginning this book had evil associations with it. The sad thing is that it doesnt bother you that this westcott and hort were ghost believers and they didnt believe in the teachings of God. Then we have the man who created the dictionary that the translators used remember (Kittel) he was a nazi soldier and killed God’s people. Then we have over 10 different denomonations working on this book. Non believers who were among the other translators and then we have the two admitted homosexuals on the project also. The texts are not reliable texts because some were corrupted. The translation was for readability instead of word for word. The book is associated with the satanic bible. I have showed you verses where the book contradicts itself. The sad thing about it is that with all this evidence against this book and the evil that was involved with it you will make excuses and will believe that this is the true teachings of God. This is my final input on the subject. God bless you and your family.
Sonya,
Are you actually implying every verse in the NIV is “butchered”? Please tell me you would reconsider that statement. A couple of final points on my end…thanks for the discussion:
1 – Is a translation only accurate based on its translators being sin free? (Both NIV and KJV translators had sin in their life).
2 – We must evaluate each translation on the finished product and how accurately they have translated the text. (Both NIV and KJV have poorly translated verses).
3 – Sinaiticus has a HUGE percentage of agreement with the other texts. It is not some rogue text that flies in the face of all the other texts as you seem to think. Have you even looked at it? Have you ever even seen a verse from this manuscript and compared it with another Greek text and then looked at the similarities? I have and I have found much of what I have looked at was identical with other Greek texts. So by indicting Sinaiticus, you are indicting pretty much all texts since the basic contents in Sinaiticus are mirrored in the other texts, even those the KJV was translated from (with the exception of minor textual variants that are present in ALL manuscripts). I don’t think you would want to go on record saying all manuscripts are corrupt but that is basically what you are saying when you look at the implications of what you wrote above.
4 – There is no perfect translation. It amazes me that people are quick to point out problems with the NIV but won’t listen if you point out a single problem in the KJV. At least admit it has issues.
5 – Do you agree that it is possible for someone to read from or study the NIV and become a Christian? Isn’t that the bottom line. Please give me an answer to at least that question. Are you willing to go so far as to say that no faith can come from the NIV and that all who study it are lost?
6 – In the end we will disagree on this issue but that doesn’t make us any less brothers and sisters in Christ.
Thanks again and I wish you God’s deepest blessing as you study His Word and seek Him with all your heart.
To answer your question honestly to # 5 I dont think that you can become a true Christain reading and studying this book I have already pointed out just some of the major mistakes in your niv book. Here is a few verses KJV Matt: 7:17-23 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a CORRUPT
tree bringeth forth EVIL fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a CORRUPT tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down,and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord,Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say Lord,Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wounderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER knew you: DEPART from me, ye that work iniquity. In your niv book it perverts the deity of Jesus Christ,the virgin birth, removes the blood of Jesus Christ in its verses. That is the only way of salvation is to be washed in the blood of Jesus Christ who died for our sins. KJV John 3:16 states the deity of Jesus Christ without a shadow of a doubt For God so loved the world, that he gave his only BEGOTTEN son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. and in your book it states niv John 3:16 For God so love the world that he gave his ONE AND ONLY SON,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Adam was called the son of God,christains are called sons of God. etc etc. The niv also robs Jesus Christ of worship. Even The Lords Prayer had no prayer with this book. Luke 11:2-4 Here is the answer from the KJV which I thinks personally addresses the niv book “… then cometh the devil,and TAKETH AWAY the WORD…” I read some of the niv book I was given a niv book and a niv study book. After doing my intense investigation of this book I decided that I didnt want such things in my house so I stood by my table and tore up both books throughly so no one might be deceived that I knew. I believe that the words out of the KJV came from God. Now I said God not man. Not what man Thought God was saying.
or it was easy to read or a newer version. I want you to also understand that being a KJV doesnt matter to me I truly believe that these are the words from God through men made holy by God. He promised me his true words and I have found nothing that can compare with the writings and teachings in my Bible. I shall pray for you mattdabbs and hope you find the widsom of God’s word and to preach his true gospel and not lead others down the way toward damnation. In Jesus name I pray Amen.
Sonya,
Thank you for your prayers. I value them and we all certainly rely on God for everything. I have to point out that your statement that anyone who studies from the NIV is doomed to hell is VERY problematic. The problem is you seem not to have been informed that all translations have just as serious of problems including the KJV. But I doubt you would be willing to say that all those who who studies the KJV are destined to go to hell. Why not be even handed?
For instance, the KJV translators used Erasmus Greek New Testament as one of their texts. Erasmus’ text (Manuscript 1r) that Erasmus used to compile his Greek New Testament was lacking Revelation 22:16-21. What did he do? He took the Latin Vulgate and backwards translated it into Greek. In doing so, he “corrupted” (your word, not mine) the Greek and made form scratch a version of the text that had never previously existed. This is where it gets interesting – The text he produced became one of the 25 Greek manuscripts the KJV used to translate the New Testament. Does that bother you? The NIV committee had over 5000 manuscripts at their disposal to study and find the most accurate text they could work from.
Does that mean the KJV is corrupt because, just like the NIV used a text you disagree with, the KJV translators used texts that are even less accurate than what the NIV translators had at their disposal. My point is not the NIV is awesome and the KJV stinks…my point is they all have problems but it seems as if you just ignore any of the facts I bring up about the KJV and then say those who study the NIV are going to hell because their version has problems. If you held yourself to the same standard you would have to conclude you were lost. I hope you don’t believe that!
By the way, the NIV has problems of its own. See this link for a few – https://www.claudemariottini.com/blog/2009/09/niv-revision.html
Last, here are a couple of problems that can be pointed out with the KJV, just so you realize they do exist…not for the point of proving the KJV wrong but I write this so hopefully you will realize that you need to lighten up on the NIV…just because it has issues doesn’t mean it is corrupt because the KJV has just as many issues and there is no way you would say any of this about that translation. If you heard that the KJV had phrases in it that have NEVER appeared in ANY Greek manuscript would that be a problem to you?
1 – Revelation 5:14 in the KJV contains the phrase “Him that liveth for ever and ever” exists in no Greek manuscript. Error.
2 – Matthew 6:13 they added the phrase “For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever.” Error.
3 – Acts 9:6 – “and he trembling and astonished said, “Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him…” is not in any Greek manuscript.
Where did these come from? They came from Erasmus backwards translating the Latin Vulgate into Greek. The Vulgate had errors in it and these ended up back into Greek when Erasmus constructed his Greek manuscript and filled in the gaps by making his own Greek from translating Latin versions (the Vulgate).
By your own standard you would have to say this is “corrupt” right? That the KJV then has words that have been added into the text that Revelation 22 says not to do and should result in plagues and judgments from God. What do you think? Let’s at least be even handed.
The Gospel is that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the grave to redeem us. We accept, confess and beleive, and that is the gospel. God is perfectly able to work all things through all things and is able to bring me to His heart without mine, yours or any translatiors words. Please stop tearing each other apart…I beleive that is is the King James as well as the NIV.
I have used the NIV from the beginning…what ever you think..I think God is the author and perfector of my faith and it is Him alone who will bring me into salvation…because like ALL the bibles tell us…if we look for him as we look for a treasure, we will find him. My heart is true and God knows my heart. I think all this talk about what man has done to the bible is a little silly. How weak do you think God is? You are acting like it is up to man to get Gods word to us. He said his word would get to all generations and yet you think a mere man can change that…..I have you ask you how that is a show of faith? Besides all the information you are getting this information from is defenantly man made. I am not saying that there is not some tampering going on, but God guides other true hearts just like yours and we should leave the judging up to him.
Sonya, Your statement implies that you can only become a Christian if you can speak English and read the KJV Bible. There are NO original texts of the Bible to consult for accuracy. The oldest manuscripts in existence are many years removed from the originals and have been hand copied by sinful, flawed men over and over again. There are NO perfect manuscripts to translate any version of the Bible making ALL versions flawed. It is absolutely amazing that out of all the manuscripts that are available, hundreds of years removed from each other, that there are as few differences as there are. Do you think that this could be because of the work of man? Man was never tasked with the responsibility of maintaining the integrity of scripture. God in his infinite wisdom has made the Bible accessible in many versions and translations to people all over the world, not to just a small population of English speaking individuals.
I wished you would fight for Gods word as much as you are fighting for this niv book. I told you already it doesnt have anything to do with the King James Bible in general I believe what is written in it is the true words of God he promised me I would have all his words to live by and the KJV doesnt call satan Jesus in any verse. It doesnt contradict itself over and over.it doesnt leave out some of the commandments, It didnt come from a totally evil background and it doesnt fund the satanic bible.It didnt come from corrupted text. etc etc etc etc etc, So I am asking you why you dont like the KJV. You seem to be BOOK SMART so you dont need to read this cause it is easier for you to understand.Right? You say that it is almost like the KJV but what? You dont like the verses where it shows that God is all powerful and to be feared but loved. Or is it that the virgin birth bothers you. Or that people worship and worshipped Jesus Christ.The trinity, the blood of Jesus, etc etc etc etc. What about hell ,your book is so afraid of that word that it doesnt acknowledge that it to is ,a neverending life of torture and torment. You want to believe hell is just the grave.(Satan I know doenst like the word hell it is a touchy subject to him) Boy, how easy that one would be to believe in. Also when speaking about the 10 commandments in various parts of the niv one of the commandments is missing and I bet you know which one that is, well just in case you forgot I will share it with you. Thou shalt not bare false witness against thy neighbor. Wow your book in certain verses says it is okay to lie lie lie. By the way you havent commented at all on all the contradictions in your book why is that. cause your book came from man not God. Right? (niv) in the preface it states that it is not a word for word reading. How come everytime you use your book you have to put the niv symbol next to it?. Does someone want credit for this thing? You keep over and over again admitting that your book has major flaws in it. As for you translating greek just how much training have you had in the greek language? The only way the devil had to attack the word of God was through these corrupted texts. and if you are honest you can see there are more corruption than just a few spelling words or quotation marks in your niv book. As far as the KJV using corrupted text is a total lie and you know it. the sad thing again is that you are willing to lie to try and cover up the truth about the niv book. The translators who were working on the KJV thought that they were translating the very words of God. Not mans words on how or what God was trying to say. It is very clear to me that God needs no help from any man on telling us what and how we are to live are lives. As far as your so called training in greek is, it is probably just enough to get you by in school Right? What my I ask did you do all this time without this precious niv book. and do you think that all the souls before this came out are lost cause man didnt tell them what God wanted to say to us. From the looks of your pic you were probably raised on the KJV if you were brought up in the Christain religion. Am I right? So cause you went to some college and they told you how and what to believe in, you gave it all up cause man told you a different way to live a godly life. The words when I read them are so powerful to me. I feel Gods presence and I trust in him when I pray for wisdom and he gives it to me. He has always been there for me even when I wasnt for him at times. I have seen miracles after miracles God granted in my lifetime. You try and put words into my mouth when I make a true statement about your niv book You said I said that anyone who studies in the niv was hell bound I did not. I studied it and found out alot of contradictions and flaws in it and in some cases if somone was to believe what they read would be hell bound for sure. That is not judging at all that is that the niv is filled full of mistakes. Get this it DOESNT MATTER WHAT TEXT the translators used invloving the niv cause they interupted it the way they thought God was saying so lets get this straight once and for all it didnt matter what text they used they were speaking for God. If they had used the exact texts the KJv used and translated it like the niv it would also be wrong wrong wrong, because it would be mans thought and words not Gods now do you get my point.
Sonya,
It is amazing you can draw so many conclusion about what I believe about specific doctrines based on what I have written here about translations.
Looks like we are going to have to disagree on this. I will end with a quote from the translators of the KJV from the Translators to the Reader in the 1611 intro and then a blessing for you,
“Now to the latter we answer; that we do not deny, nay we affirm and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English, set forth by men of our profession, (for we have seen none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. As the King’s speech, which he uttereth in Parliament, being translated into French, Dutch, Italian, and Latin, is still the King’s speech, though it be not interpreted by every Translator with the like grace, nor peradventure so fitly for phrase, nor so expressly for sense, everywhere.”
They believed their version, as well as other versions represented the very Word of God. I agree.
I think that is a great point you make. In the end we all do have to study for ourselves and try to discern what God’s Word is as best we can. I think God honors such zeal and enthusiasm and I can tell you have that. Praise God!
Anyway, it has been nice talking with you. I hope this has been beneficial to you and even though we don’t agree on this at least it has encouraged us to be zealous and to use our minds for a good task. I am sure God is pleased with both. I wish you the best in your studies and pray that God uses you to reach many people. I pray God’s richest blessings upon you and that you continue to be steadfast and zealous for the Word of God.
Blessings,
Matt
Thank you for the explanation. I’ve been listening to the NIV in mp3 for about 2 years now and have been going through it several times. My 13 year old son has a NASB and asked me about the angels in john 5:4 and I was clueless as to what he was talking about. It led to a good discussion and humbled me…again…. I grew up Catholic and just took everything I heard for granted and didn’t bother to check the facts myself. (my fault, not the Catholics) I’m starting to do my homework now but it’s a bib book with lots of translations. I’m learning ever day!
The Peace of the Lord be with you!
For all you true believers: There’s no use to contend with reprobates, for the Lord had rejected them already, (literaly taking out their opportunity for salvation as the Lord Himself hardened their hearts hearts) such they would not have the discerning spirit -hence could not understand the Word of God, but instead corrupts the Word and even defends/justifies the perversions to deceive many.
Revelations 22:18
And if any man shall take away words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
To God be the Glory Forever and Ever!!!
Why NIV deletes verses??? Simple, the book denies Jesus as the Christ, the ALPHA and OMEGA, and does not respect the GOD himself, for it perverts the WORD of GOD.
Revelations 22:17-18 tells of REPROBATES which could never grasp why….
For simplicity sake, compare this:
New International Version (©1984)
which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”
King James Bible
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
In John 1:1, In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with GOD, and the WORD was GOD.
Tampering, with the WORD is Blasphemy against GOD. Now, between the two versions, which one acknowledges GOD
To God be the Glory
Contending,
The NIV denies Jesus as the Christ? Let’s see if that holds up? I mean, if that was their intent why on earth would they accurately translate these passages rather than try to pervert them as you say they do?
Acts 1:21, 2:36, 4:33, 7:59, 8:16, 9:17, 9:27, 10:36, 11:17, 11:20, 15:11, 15:26, 16:31, 18:25, 19:5, 19:13, 19:17, 20:21-24, 20:35, 21:13:26:16, 28:31, and over 100 other references to Jesus as Lord/Christ.
Does it really sound like they didn’t believe Jesus was Lord and Christ?
Let’s have a look at your comparison, which is claiming that the NIV does not believe Jesus is Alpha and Omega. The NIV doesn’t have the phrase and the King James does. Where does the phrase “Lord and Christ” come from? It isn’t in any Greek manuscript that I can find. So where did the King James get it from? They got it from the Textus Receptus.
It is not in any early Greek manuscript. It is not in the Vulgate. It is not in stephanus’ manuscript. Metzger does not even list it as a textual variant in his textual commentary. So it basically has no adequate basis for being in the New Testament.
Can you show me any different? You may say, well the KJV has it so it must be right. So where did the KJV get it from and tell me why you believe it was in the original manuscript of John.
I hope this doesn’t sound confrontational at all. That is not what I am trying to do. I would just like to keep this discussion informed/accurate and beneficial. If claims about the NIV are going to fly they need to be backed up.
Why I believe KJV is the preserved inerrant, Word of GOD)? Here’s just two of the Billion reasons why.
1. Translated literally, without any inputs from translators own perception. The 54 translators were Godly men, not sodomites translating God’s Word. I honestly think you might not get this, for your NIV does not define or mention sodomites.
3. Based on Textus Receptus, where the manuscripts susbtantiate and correlate each other 95% of the time.
While besides NIV was based on Wescott and Fenton’s Alexandrian texts:
Here’s where you got your book.
Brook Foss Westcott (1825-1903) and Fenton John Anthony Hort (1828-1892) were two non-Christian Anglican ministers. Fully steeped in the Alexandrian philosophy that “there is no perfect Bible”, they had a vicious distaste for the King James Bible and its Antiochian Greek text, the Textus Receptus. [The infidelity of Westcott and Hort is well documented in this author’s work entitled An Understandable History of the Bible, 1987, Bible Believer’s Press, P.O. Box 1249, Pottstown, PA. 19464]
It cannot be said that they believed that one could attain Heaven by either works or faith, since both believed that Heaven existed only in the mind of man.
Westcott believed in and attempted to practice a form of Communism whose ultimate goal was communal living on college campus’s which he called a “coenobium. ”
Both believed it possible to communicate with the dead and made many attempts to do just that through a society which they organized and entitled “The Ghostly Guild.”
Westcott accepted and promoted prayers for the dead. Both were admirers of Mary (Westcott going so far as to call his wife Sarah, “Mary”),and Hort was an admirer and proponent of Darwin and his theory of evolution.
It is obvious to even a casual observer why they were well equipped to guide the Revision Committee of 1871-1881 away from God’s Antiochian text and into the spell of Alexandria.
They had compiled their own Greek text from Alexandrian manuscripts, which, though unpublished and inferior to the Textus Receptus, they secreted little by little to the Revision Committee. The result being a totally new Alexandrian English Bible instead of a “revision” of the Authorized Version as it was claimed to be.
It has only been in recent years that scholars have examined their unbalanced theories concerning manuscript history and admitted that their agreements were weak to non-existent.
Sadly, both men died having never known the joy and peace of claiming Jesus Christ as their Saviour.
Now, why would I believe in a copyrighted book, published together with the satanic bible and joy of gay sex, translated from a Greek text derived from ungodly men when we have a KJV where Godly men understand every word through the empowering of the Holy Spirit.
The Word of God indeed is hard to understand if one is a reprobate.
=)
Thanks for the reply. These conversations always go the same way. Someone levels accusations about this translation or that. I attempt to dialog about the issues and bring up valid points. My points are never addressed (the passages about Jesus being Lord/Christ, which specific manuscripts the KJV got Alpha and Omega from, and many others). If you could respond to any of that it would be appreciated (see more on the Textus Receptus below)
Allow me to respond to your points:
1. “Translated literally, without any inputs from translators own perception. The 54 translators were Godly men, not sodomites translating God’s Word. I honestly think you might not get this, for your NIV does not define or mention sodomites.”
Have you ever translated anything from Greek or Hebrew to English? There are many, many judgment calls that translators have to consider in this process. Those judgment calls are done carefully and are not done ignorantly. They require a grasp of the context of the passage and particular word being translated as well as an informed understanding of linguistics, grammar, and Hebrew/Koine Greek.
For instance, have a look at John 3:16 in the KJV:
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
First you will notice a literal translation does not mean one word for one word (the KJV doesn’t even do that here). Literal means transferring the meaning from one language to the other and trying to free it from our own biases, leanings, etc. That is a difficult process but a worthy task of any translator of the Bible. If literal means one word for one word then the KJV is also not literal in its translation of this passage because they translated monogenes (1 word) as “only begotten” (2 words). So you can be literal and not one word for one word.
“Only begotten” comes from the Greek word monogenes. The KJV is saying monogenes means the only one born to someone (only begotten). Hebrews 11:17 says Isaac was Abraham’s monogenes (translated there “only begotten” as well) but we know Abraham had more than one child. So Isaac was not Abraham’s only begotten or even his first child. Same word in the Greek in Hebrews 11:17 and John 3:16. The KJV just didn’t quite catch the definition of monogenes in these passages very well. Does that mean the KJV is chocked full of errors and to be rejected? Absolutely not. But it does mean that all translations have challenges that we don’t need to turn a blind eye to. What is more, it is unfair to accuse other translations of having the same problems your own has but ignore them in your own, holding it up as basically perfect. Let’s at least be aware of the issues and be fair with them.
2 – I checked the Textus Receptus and Alpha and Omega are not in that verse. So now what?
Last, a citation of the copy and paste work is needed when you lift someone’s work like that (like your info on W & H found verbatim here – https://www.chick.com/reading/books/158/158_44.asp
Anyway, a translation is evaluated on the translation itself. I will gladly engage you in dialog on any verses you like from the NIV or the KJV and explore the translations based on their own merits. I hope we can continue the conversation.
Blessings,
Matt
Matt, thank you for your open minded dialogue, I know it must be frustrating at times–I wish I had your patience.
You bring up some good points. I can’t believe how people get so defensive when the topic of bible errors is discussed–fundamentalist maybe?
And that said, those 54 translators, according the the Preface they themselves wrote, used seven earlier English translations from Wycliffe to Coverdale to guide them in how a particular verse would be rendered.
So that proves (no matter how much I like the KJV) that the King James
was not translated in a vacuum.
Even without the deleted verses, there are obviously contradictions that we should be worried about
Example:
Why does Luke write in the book of Acts that 75 people went into Egypt when the OT says twice that only 70 went–can the bible be the inerrant word of God with those mistakes?
Genesis 46:26-27–All the persons who went with Jacob to Egypt, who came from his body, besides Jacob’s sons’ wives, were sixty-six persons in all. 27 And the sons of Joseph who were born to him in Egypt were two persons. All the persons of the house of Jacob who went to Egypt were seventy.
Exodus 1:5–All those who were descendants[a] of Jacob were seventy[b] persons (for Joseph was in Egypt already)
Contradiction–Act 7:14-15–Then Joseph sent and called his father Jacob and all his relatives to him, seventy-five[d] people. 15 So Jacob went down to Egypt; and he died, he and our fathers.
Contradiction–Acts7:14-15–Then Joseph sent and called his father Jacob and all his relatives to him, seventy-five[d] people. 15 So Jacob went down to Egypt; and he died, he and our fathers.
Example:
Why does Luke write in Acts that Abraham was buried in Sychem where he brought the sepulchre (tomb) from Emmor? In the OT Genesis 23:1-19 say that Abraham brought the Sepulchre (tomb) in Hebron from Ephron.
Genesis 23:1-19– 1 Sarah lived one hundred and twenty-seven years; these were the years of the life of Sarah. 2 So Sarah died in Kirjath Arba (that is, Hebron) in the land of Canaan, and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah and to weep for her.
3 Then Abraham stood up from Now Ephron dwelt among the sons of Heth; and Ephron the Hittite answered Abraham in the presence of the sons of Heth, all who entered at the gate of his city, saying, 11 “No, my lord, hear me: I give you the field and the cave that is in it; I give it to you in the presence of the sons of my people. I give it to you. Bury your dead!”
12 Then Abraham bowed himself down before the people of the land; 13 and he spoke to Ephron in the hearing of the people of the land, saying, “If you will give it, please hear me. I will give you money for the field; take it from me and I will bury my dead there.”….19 And after this, Abraham buried Sarah his wife in the cave of the field of Machpelah, before Mamre (that is, Hebron) in the land of Canaan. 20 So the field and the cave that is in it were deeded to Abraham by the sons of Heth as property for a burial place.
Gen25:7 This is the sum of the years of Abraham’s life which he lived: one hundred and seventy-five years. 8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. 9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, 10 the field which Abraham purchased from the sons of Heth. There Abraham was buried, and Sarah his wife.
Contradiction–Acts 7:16–And they were carried back to Shechem and laid in the tomb that Abraham bought for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem.
Everyone knows that Abraham and his wife and sons are buried in Hebron where Jews and Muslims visit his tomb to this day.
Those two obvious contradictions mean more to me than the other redundant contradictions of the NT (That are great in number by the way).
Is the bible the inerrant word God or is it possible that we have many mistakes that would make this more of a human book than completely God inspired–I have a hard time imagining that God couldn’t remember where Abraham was buried, and i have an even harder time imagining that God forgot how many people came to Egypt with Jacob.
I don’t know why everyone wants to declare the King James Bible to be the inerrant word of God when he was such obvious errors. This is what gives critics against Christians Fuel. The book has obvious contradictions and errors so we should face them. Why not welcome new correct scripture? Isn’t it true that what’s in the dark will come to light? If you find that certain scriptures where fabrications or errors then don’t you love God enough to correct your beliefs if that is what new scripture discover reveals–not that it has totally done that yet, but what if total divinity of Christ disappears after an 1st century writing is found; would you correct your belief or hang on to it out of stubbornness or arrogance?
When people get angry at the mention of errors in the Bible that seems like arrogance to me, but thats just my opinion.
If we research then the truth will remain the truth no matter how hard we look; however, if the truth changes then maybe we should thank God for bringing us closer to the truth.
BT,
God used real people to pen these words. There is no doubt about that. I don’t believe God whispered in their ear what to write. For instance, Luke tells us he researched and recorded these things for Theophilus (ultimately for us as well). So I have no problem with some discrepancies. None of these shatter my faith or worry me in the least!
Funny you mention the 70/75 example because just like this post the difference comes in translation. Not ours, but theirs. Luke was referencing the Septuagint (LXX) rather than the Hebrew test of the OT. The LXX says 75, not 70. The Hebrew text says 70. It is possible the LXX was working from a Hebrew text on that passage in Gen 46:27 that had a textual variant.
We need to all be informed about the inspiration of scripture and get our minds around the Bible rather than make false assumptions that are then shattered when things like these crop up.
It’s obvious that you, like the NIV version, have left out scripture in your explanation. You referenced in ACTS 7:16 that Abraham died and was carried…….ACTS 7:15 clearly says that JACOB went down to Egypt and died, NOT ABRAHAM.
No contradiction whatsoever.
Watch this video
It will explain the issue thoroughly
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4329906407145130004&ei=VYAlS_yiA8fJ-Abzn9mOBg&q=changing+the+word
Reply
I should have qualified my previous post and offered some specific examples. Otherwise, I am doing the exact same thing I said you are doing! That wouldn’t be a very good example of me so let me give some examples of the three things:
1 – Ignoring anything that doesn’t support your position:
You have ignored my pleas for you to deal with the text. You have ignored my request for specific problems you have with the NIV. You have ignored my request for specific problems stemming from W&H in regard to subsequent translations including but not limited to the NIV. You still haven’t answered this question from above – “Why is it you expect me to evaluate the KJV solely on the basis of its translation and not on its translators?” I would also love to hear your response to that.
2 – Misrepresentation of my views:
You have called me a liar and accused me of misrepresenting you. You have said that I have posted “hollow threats” when nothing I have written has been a threat at all…just questions and stating the facts. Sorry if I have gotten defensive in any of my responses. That is my natural gut reaction when people start making untrue & unfair accusations of me.
3 – Not dealing with questions/positions:
Refer to #1 for a thorough list of things you still haven’t dealt with. I would still love to hear from you on those.
And last, your point is that the KJV translators were at least Christians trying to do a reasonable service for God is well taken. So let’s apply that to the actual NIV translators. Who were they and were they trying to do anything different than the KJV translators? I happen to know one of them and he is a fine Christian man who believes in the Gospel, has been baptized, and follows Christ as best he can. Have a look into those who translated the NIV and you will find people who were also trying to please God and render an accurate translation, just as the KJV translators were trying to do.
So in the end it all comes down to your final statement. You said it for me – we are not here to make some people out as better than others based on the translation they use. That is true of the KJV and the NIV. BOTH are adequate translations.
Hi Matt,
I will reply on the issues later, i will do some research.
If you could watch the video Battle of the bibles
and comment on that i think that would be helpful.
Sorry if i seemed insulting, I would not like to write anything meanspirited, but i think i explained my position.
Just be aware though that your style seems to offend various people.
If you honestly addressed peoples concerns, not just saying its your blog, then you would get a better reception.
Let me just say that the formative influence of men like W+H is important and should be considered.
We should not judge a translation solely on the translators but it should be one of the considerations.
For instance, i would reject the new world, Jehovah’s witness bible as corrupt purely by its assocation with this group.
I think studying this version bears out this as it is altered to suit an end.
W+H did have an influence on all modern bibles and given their hatred of certain doctrines, like justification by faith alone, one should be careful.
I know many people read the NIV and trust in God,
And i do not support a hyper KJ only view.
I think it can create a kind of arrogance in some. But the issue is are the modern bibles completly trustworthy.
It is a pity this discussion is NIV vs KJV, all the modern versions are based on different texts than the KJ so it is a big issue.
As to the integrity of some of the NIV translators, i have no doubt you are right in this.
One question that needs to be raised also is why does their need to be so many versions.
For hundreds of years one version was largely read and it seemed to work ok.
I think it only adds to confusion to have literally dozens of versions.
I think it sends out a message that it is impossible to truly understand the Bible, because men need to keep refining it.
It tends to take from the authority of the bible, because when versions do not agree people tend to doubt these passages.
This was one of the devices of W+H, they knew if they removed vast postions of text people would object.
So instead they put alterante readings in the margain thus encouraging the reader to doubt if the truth was truly knowable on these verses.
While they did not delete huge portions, they succeeded in creating doubts around various passages.
I mentioned 1 John 5:7
I know this is contentious but in reality it is just the tip of the iceberg,
Kind regards,
what is wrong with you people I just got out of prison .there are thousands and hundreds of thousands of people giving their lives to Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit and all the prisons give you is the NIV you could put my fathers word through 50 different filters the story will remain the same jesus loves you I think you guys are a little too technical about everything.if these people are receiving the Holy Spirit from our father in heaven.through the NIV…trust godknows what he is doing
Amen, amen and amen!
Aiden,
I really appreciate the spirit of this post. It is constructive, thoughtful, and well written. I will have a look at the video when I get a chance. It may be a couple of days.
As far as my style offending people, I have written 1400 posts on this blog and there are only 2-3 posts in my memory where this has happened. All of those posts are regarding translations and people coming on the blog commenting contentiously and my responding to them is direct. Why is it that the other 99.87% of the time “my style” doesn’t elicit this type of response but instead results in constructive dialog between believers?
Additionally, I feel I have done far more to address your concerns and others than saying “this is my blog deal with it”. I have pages and pages of response and one single sentence with that sentiment.
I agree with you on the background of the translators making a difference and on the same ground I would reject certain portions of Bible’s like the New World Bible based on doctrinal biases in the text. That is evaluated on a verse by verse basis based on the quality of the translation. The NWB has some very good and accurate translation as well but clearly some problems to be pointed out (same with the KJV and NIV although the problems aren’t as glaring and the translation of both of those are far superior).
Glad to hear you are not KJV only. That is an entire independent can of worms from all of this.
Last, you mentioned 1 John 5:7. Let’s use this as a case example of why newer translations omitted some verses. Here is why the verse is omitted (much of this is from Metzger’s textual commentary and his book “The Text of the New Testament”. Hopefully in reading this evidence you will see why new versions that utilized texts other than what the KJV translators had at their disposal can make our Bibles more accurate rather than less:
1 – Of the thousands of Greek manuscripts only 4 have the addition in 1 John 5:7-8. Of those 4, 2 have it written in the margin by a much later hand (that’s pretty questionable, right?). The 4 are from the 11th, 12th, 14th and 16th century. So the earliest this shows up in a Greek text is over 1000 years from when 1 John was written. That means there are countless older texts and even contemporary texts with the KJV texts that didn’t have this verse.
2 – I will quote Metzger here (Textual Comm, 717),
“The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies…Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.”
3 – No ancient manuscript of any version/language has this verse. Pretty telling. So how was this verse absent for 1000 years and then all of a sudden someone figures out it was legit and should be in there?
Metzger gives more of the story in his book The Text of the New Testament, 101:
He goes on to tell the story of one of the four known manuscripts that contain this verse and where it came from. Erasmus was compiling the 3rd edition of the Greek New Testament in 1522. In earlier editions he had left this verse out because he had no Greek manuscripts to back it up. Because it was in some Latin manuscripts (including the Vulgate) some questioned its absence. He made a promise that if any Greek mss. could be found including the verse he would include it. Lo and behold one of the men, Friar Froy who had taken contention with Erasmus over its omission came up with a manuscript that turned out to be a forgery, translating the Latin Vulgate back into Greek. Erasmus stood by his word and included 1 John 5:7-8 “but he indicates in a lengthy footnote his suspicions that the manuscript had been prepared expressly in order to confute him.” – Metzger, 101
So of the 4 manuscripts where this verse exists, 2 have the verse written in the margin, one was a backwards translation of the Vulgate. From Erasmus it made its way into the KJV because that is what they had at their disposal. I don’t blame them for that. They were doing the best they could with what they had at their disposal with the best of intentions. Like the rest of the “omissions” in newer translations this verse has no bearing on my theology and holds no doctrine that solely rests on this single verse.
After reading all that would you still consider the questionable part of 1 John 5:7-8 legit?
I will have a look at the video when I get a chance and get back with you on that. God bless.
Aiden,
A couple of questions for you. I really do hope you will answer and not follow the pattern of those who have gone before. I will do the same and address your and their concerns to be fair.
First, do you expect me to evaluate the KJV based solely on the translation or would it be fair to point out the sins of the translators themselves or anyone associated with the 1611 KJV? Which is fair? If I find that people associated with the KJV had the same sins as W&H would that bother you? Do all translators or people even remotely connected with a translation have to be sinless for the translation to be accurate? (By the way, W&H were not even that closely connected with the NIV translation but more on that in a minute).
Next, let’s have a look at the W&H situation and the evaluation of whether or not this affects my view of the NIV. The accusation is that these guys were big time sinners and therefore the NIV is corrupt and not to be trusted.
1 – These guys are loosely connected at best with the NIV. People banter this stuff about as if they were on the NIV translation committee. They weren’t. They were dead long before the NIV was translated. So even their association with anything to do with the NIV is indirect. They never even heard of the NIV since it wasn’t in existence in their lifetime.
2 – W&H compiled a Greek text of the New Testament in 1881 (NIV published in 1978) that influenced the way people viewed textual criticism and pushed against the Majority/Received text. This was not the manuscript the NIV was translated from but it did make an attempt to use some of the older, better manuscripts the translators of the KJV did not have at their disposal.
So you are condemning a 1978 translation based on the work of men in 1881. Help me understand that.
3 – Is a translation considered heretical if it is found out that anyone associate with it has sin? Of course not. That is preposterous.
4 – Why is it you expect me to evaluate the KJV solely on the basis of its translation and not on its translators? Do you believe they were perfect? If anyone of them had ever committed a sin does that put them in the camp of W & H as fellow sinners?
Before I go on, I am interested to hear your feedback and dialog with you on this.
God bless – Matt
Hi,
Quote ” If I find that people associated with the KJV had the same sins as W&H would that bother you?”
Thats a hollow threat, If you have something to say then say it.
As far as i know this evidence does not exist.
W+H were no Christian as all and hated the Textus Receptus, and by extension the work accomplished through it.
If all the modern bibles are influenced by these evil men then it is very serious.
You make some false assumptions about me,
I never said the KJ was perfect, please read this —
https://www.deanburgonsociety.org/KJBible/deification.htm
I think it is balanced.
I posted the wrong video link before, This is a look at the history of the matter with extensive qoutes from many, including Westcott and Hort.
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8000050340026696207&ei=MhcpS92uJJKF-Qaq3OjHAw&q=veith+bibles&view=3
Walter Veith Battle of the Bibles
You are always trying to frame the debate to suit your own agenda so only your opinion seems valid.
The facts you refuse to address are that W+H were antichristian and hated the Bible as it existed.
They embraced many Catholic doctrines and were part of occult societies.
Their influence, as well as others has been vast.
Why are you pushing the NIV with such zeal.
Honestly i dont care what letters are on the spine as long as it is accurate and the facts about W+H raise huge questions.
Lets face it, There is a big difference between a Christian who sins and men like W+H.
You seem not to see the distinction.
They were not honest Christian seeking God, hoping to do a good work.
As far as i can see they hated God and the Bible and wanted to alter it to promote different doctrines.
These men had an agenda,
Do you Support it?
And by the way, I would love to find out how you think I was lying here. Please point the lie out to me.
I think honestly it is tantamount to lying, to suggest the sins of Westcott and Hort and inconsequential.
An honest person seeks to look at all the facts in a situation, not just those that suit ones own agenda.
Deal with all the facts please.
Please be sure that what you are saying here is inspired by the Spirit of the Creator Most High God, if not then you are inspired by “the false bearer of light.”
Please be sure that what you are saying here is inspired by the Spirit of the Creator Most High God, if not then you are inspired by “the false bearer of light.” If you are not sure and just based on the scholarship sources which you think are right, then stop!
Aiden,
Then tell me what you do with the sins of the KJV translators, which they certainly had as well. You do realize W&H had nothing to do with the actual translation of the NIV, right? They just go the ball in motion of referring back to earlier text and rejecting the Majority Text (which was decent but not all that it could be).
It would then be dishonest of you if you deny the fact that people associated with the KJV had their own issues with sin, just as we all do. That doesn’t mean you throw out the KJV because the translators sinned as well, right?
You are intentionally trying to misrepresent me.
If you actually read what i ssid you might understand.
I never said anyone connected with the KJ was perfect.
As i said if you have any substantive issues with the KJ translators please let us know, your points are pretty hollow.
As usual you did not address what i wrote, always trying to keep things to your narrow agenda.
I am well aware as to W+H havin lived long before the NIV but as you said they set the ball in motion.
Let me reask the question — Do you support their position?
I never denied anyones sins, I made the point W+H were not Christians at all.
Let me ask you — Why did they reject the majority text?
I think its fair to say they hated most Protestant doctrine.
1851 Dec. 29,30th – Hort: “I had no idea till the last few weeks of the importance of texts, having read so little Greek Testament, and dragged on with the villainous Textus Receptus.. Think of that vile Textus Receptus leaning entirely on late MSS.; it is a blessing there are such early ones” (Life, Vol.I, p.211).
One further point is that most Christians have no idea about this issue.
The Bible one reads is no test of spirituality or character.
Many true believers read many different versions.
This issue here is one of seeking the truth and honesty.
Not to make some out as better that others because of
different versions.
The moment everyone associated within 100 years coming into new translation who had any influence whatsoever has to be sinless is the moment we are forced to throw out all translations. That wouldn’t do.
Well i would not want to pursue that point to its logical conclusion.
If one did we would have to accept any perversion foisted on the world as a bible translation.
If a bunch of satanists wanted to produce a bible version should we accept it because we are all sinners?
The Character and convictions of persons involved in this work is very important.
One cannot be sinless but their beliefs and motives should be biblical.
Unlike a certain 2, W+H.
One last thing, one of my favorite quotes by B.F. Westcott regarding the King James Version. This quote is from 1868,
“From the middle of the seventeenth century, the King’s Bible has been the acknowledged Bible of the English-speaking nations throughout the world simply because it is the best. A revision which embodied the ripe fruits of nearly a century of labour, and appealed to the religious instinct of a great Christian people, gained by its own internal character a vital authority which could never have been secured by an edit of sovereign rulers.”
If you are going to trash someone, at least be well read on them 🙂
“Honestly i dont care what letters are on the spine as long as it is accurate and the facts about W+H raise huge questions.” – Then please point out the inaccuracies of the NIV so we can discuss them rather than pointing to men who had influence in textual criticism and Greek texts 100 years prior to the translation we are discussing. I still haven’t heard a single example of why the NIV is bad due to the influence of W&H. Fill me in.
So raise the questions. What are your concerns about the NIV, specific concerns, based on WH?
“Lets face it, There is a big difference between a Christian who sins and men like W+H.” – I totally agree. That is a great point.
So let’s get right to it. What specific concerns do you have about the NIV itself as a translation that can be directly traced back to the influence of W&H?
I appreciate your tone and attitude in this and your willingness to engage in dialog.
1 John 5:7
Do you honestly think W+H have had no serious effect on the modern Bibles?
Watch the 2 videos i posted and respond to them.
Aiden,
Let me get this straight. You tell me I only talk about the things that support my position and ignore the rest. You do the same.
You tell me that I misrepresent you. You do the same to me.
You tell me that I don’t deal with you questions or positions. While you do the same!
What am I missing here?
So let me respond to the most relevant of your comments in the recent batch. I wish you would respond to half my questions but you won’t so I won’t hold my breath 😉 I am going to assign letters to these so we make sure we stay on track and address each other’s issues.
A – “You are intentionally trying to misrepresent me.
If you actually read what i ssid you might understand.”
– Please show where I did this rather than just toss out that I am a liar who is intentionally trying to misrepresent you. If you aren’t willing to do that then I guess we will have to end this conversation as it is not very productive for one person to keep crying foul with no support or backing it up.
B – “I never said anyone connected with the KJ was perfect.
As i said if you have any substantive issues with the KJ translators please let us know, your points are pretty hollow.”
I don’t have any dirt on the KJV translators. I am glad I don’t. The reality is that is not the point. That is not the point to W&H and that is not the point toward any of those who worked on the KJV. I am indebted to the work of those men and am thankful they did what they did. So if you consider that hollow, I can understand that. My point was you bashing guys who didn’t even translate the NIV and calling the NIV into question over it is also hollow.
C – “As usual you did not address what i wrote, always trying to keep things to your narrow agenda.” This is my blog, right?
D – “I am well aware as to W+H havin lived long before the NIV but as you said they set the ball in motion.
Let me reask the question — Do you support their position?”
Please clarify, their position on what?
E – “I never denied anyones sins, I made the point W+H were not Christians at all.” – Point taken.
F – “Let me ask you — Why did they reject the majority text?”
– They rejected it because the majority text view is not a very good way to do textual criticism. Before I proceed on that do you know how the Majority text is constructed? Answer that and we will talk more on that one.
G – “1851 Dec. 29,30th – Hort: “I had no idea till the last few weeks of the importance of texts, having read so little Greek Testament, and dragged on with the villainous Textus Receptus.. Think of that vile Textus Receptus leaning entirely on late MSS.; it is a blessing there are such early ones” (Life, Vol.I, p.211).”
– His point was that the TR was based on VERY late manuscripts and that there were more accurate, older manuscripts to examine. I am thankful that we have older manuscripts than those used to translate the KJV. What we have today is almost certainly closer to the original than what they had at their disposal.
G – “One further point is that most Christians have no idea about this issue.
The Bible one reads is no test of spirituality or character.
Many true believers read many different versions.
This issue here is one of seeking the truth and honesty.
Not to make some out as better that others because of
different versions.” – AMEN! Well said brother. I couldn’t have said this better myself.
Matt,
I just found this post, and I wish I had found it earlier! It seems like not much going on now, which is probably best. From my years of experience, you van have all the facts you want but you will never sway them. They are lockEd into a belief that they know is right, and to change their minds would be tanamount to renouncing ther faith in God. While I believe they are truly believers with only the highest view of God, they would rather fight over the KJV than just about anything else. You definitely have a great amount of patience to deal with the same continuous circular arguments. May God bless you all.
Well said! The message of the Bible is far more important than the different translations thereof. If the message points to Our Creator, our Redeemer, our Father, His love and concern for us and all the rest of the Gospel, then it is fine. In fact, it would be worthwhile to have different translations of the Bible so that we could compare and study them to glean the very best from God’s Word. After all, relationship with our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is far more important than the various translations of the Book. The Book points us to GOD so that we may be in a strong and vibrant relationship with Him Who is our Father. Be blessed. To God be the glory! (The glory belongs to God not to the translations.)
Hello,
The overall message of the two translations are different, read the whole NIV and KJV.
Cheers,
Is that very helpful now?
the comments on here are verry old and i just skimmed over them but i felt a sturring in my hart so i thought i wold leve a comment.I have seen menny mericals in my life one is the fact that I am even setting here tipping I have dislexa i have a verry hard time spelling how ever at the age of 2 i asked God to let me reed his words and he did,I have seen blind eyes see, the dead brought back to life, I have herd God speek, I have seen God move in peoples lives, I have faced deth more than once and felt the hand of God. I have looked down the barrel of a gun into the face of hate and felt the presence of God,frome the time i was born(from my earlest memores) I have known God my friend my comfort my hart beet and have frome the furst time i found my self able to speek have never ceced to pray and have found my joy in the living GOD. I have seen the power of God work in so menny wase,you can argue over wich vershon is best but in the end you will beleve what you WILL beleve I say only this when I walk into a church that youses the outher translashons there is a diffrent filling there is a surfus kind of filling not that im saying these people are fake but i sence there roots are shallow sweet people but I having known what real power is, having felt it, walked with it, I know when it is missing,and I fill verry sad. are these people going to hell? I dont thank that but I doubt that thay will ever know and expereance the full power of God, why? the bible tells me there will be a falling away in the last days people will hear what thay want to hear so I can argue all the facts but in the end it is a hart thaing. oh and I have studied outher religions and not all paths lead to God you MUST consedr the sorce alwase consedr the sorce.
Barbaras,
Maybe you will see this. First, just to be honest, when people type in ALL CAPS it makes me just not want to read what they wrote because it comes across as obnoxious. I did read what you wrote but that is my first reaction to comments like that. First, James didn’t translate for the KJV. You know that, right? Also, God used people who were guilty of all sorts of sins to translate it. I am sure some of the translators were liars or struggled with all sorts of things. If that makes it a bad translation then there is no good translation, ever.
What do I tell a muslim when he brings up the subject of missing verses in the bible?
Read this post that I referenced above – https://mattdabbs.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/the-case-of-the-missing-verse-john-54/. It has nothing to do with the credibility of the BIble and only represents a very, very small percentage of verses in the Bible. So if someone is using this to discredit the Bible they need to be aware of how small a scale this is (49 verses) in the entire New Testament.
Reading through these posts, has assured me that the devil has won. Modern society with all its trappings is moving away from God, they are not reading any bible. Yet we are worried which version is the best. The KJV pundits swear by the translation, yet fail to understand that it was first rejected by the public when published, and was subsequently edited for original errors. The version also removed books included in the Latin Vulgate, since they were considered heretical. Yet include the book of Hebrews (one of my favourites), which barrows heavily from the Latin Vulgate.
Unless the deviation is extensive e.g. the new NIV, the difference between most of the translations is minor. For those who are worried about studying the bible, I suggest you get a comparative study bible that uses side by side translations of different versions, as well a couple of good concordances.
I myself have always used the NIV for daily reading, I find it to reads well, gives the options of versus that may or may not be part of the original, and overall does a good job with the translation. I also maintain many other versions for when I conduct bible studies.
I came here to learn more about the history of the Bible be educated. I have been reading the Bible alot lately, i say lately because i am muslim and i got interested in the Bible.
I was mainly interested in the History of christianity and how the Bible got compiled together. I know the compilation of the Bible cannot be compared to Quran because the writting of the Bible did not happen some 40-70 years after the death of Jesus Christ ( peace with him). But what i found is how the standardized version of the Bible differs from KJV and how the Bible used by catholics has 7 more books than the one used by protestants.
What these changes and addition and now currently ommission tell me is how accurate the Quran has warned christians. The Quran says “Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, ‘Trinity.’ Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs” (4:171).”
The quran has reinstated what has been sayed in the Bible about the oneness of God. Jesus in his own words says “In Mark 12:28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
Mark 12: 29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength”
Dr Abdi,
I appreciate your interest in the Bible. I think you may be missing the point here a little. This may sound kind of strange but what this actually does is give us even more faith in the accuracy of the Bible. Out of approx 8k verses there are only 49 in this category. If you look at all of textual criticism and examine how many textual variants there are out there it only impacts 5% of the New Testament and mostly in extremely miniscule (no pun intended) ways. So we are basically 100% confident on 95% of the verses of the New Testament and on the remaining 5% there is very little question that we have the actual reading it just takes determining which one is authentic. That is where textual criticism comes in since we don’t have the autograph (perfect copies) to work from but copies of copies. Hope that makes sense. To me, this builds my faith in the accuracy of the Bible and doesn’t do a thing to diminish it.
Matt thanks for your reply and i do agree with you if it is only 49 then that is really impressive given the fact that scribes were copying by hand. However, your claim is baseless because if you read the history of the Bible most historians agree that there are more than 49 variants in the new testament. One of the prominent historians John Mills who was translating from the original Greek manuscripts found over 30,000 errors. Granted most of these are minor insignificant errors made by human scribes but i would like for you to focus on changes in the Biblical tone as you read them in chronological order of writing. Most historians agree that Mark was the first gospel to be written followed by Mathew then Luke and finnally John. As you read this gospel you can really see how Jesus Christ (PBUH) has gradually be elevated from human status to more divine by the time you reach John.
To me Jesus was not preaching in a vacuum but rather among the Jewish people of which he was raised among. For thousands of years the prophets that came before Jesus always preached the onness of GOD. I believe a God that manifest himself in three forms is a big deal.i mean trinity is a big deal. It should have come up in any of the books of the Old testment. But rather in deuteronomy it clearly states “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” there is no ambiguity about how many gods there are.
If you read the early books Jesus is telling us there is only one God as stated in Mark 12:28-29
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Jesus here is clearly telling people that He is not God but rather there is only one God and you and i and Jesus himself should subject to. Jesus on numerous occassions says “my father is greater than I”
But when you come to the Book of John you can clearly see Jesus is aware of his divinity. To me if Jesus claimed to be God it should have been un ambiguous and very clear and precise come out and say I AM GOD IN HUMAN FORM. The Divinity of Jesus Christ is Major doctrine change of God’s mesage and therefore that should have been front and center in the bible.
As i read the Bible and the Mostly the History of the Bible i more convinced that people change what the Bible says to suit there current needs and trends. Thats what happened to the Bible over time. Matt i would challenge you to read about The early church about James and his Temple in Jerusalem and about the Ebionites and remove the curtain from your eyes.
If you read my reply I mentioned two things. 1 – 49 missing verses and 2 – roughly 5% of the New Testament text is in any level of real question based on textual criticism. The second is what you are talking about. So I am quite familiar with the points you are making. However, in zero of these instances where the variants occur are any doctrines hanging in the balance, any core truths of the Gospel hanging in limbo, or anything that is hugely significant. So my point stands that none of these things weaken my faith in the Holy Bible as scripture and inspired by God. In fact, it increases my faith that what we have (Greek and Hebrew wise) is basically what was originally recorded.
Second, let me address the Mills 30,000 “errors” comment. Mill published the work you are referencing, Novum Testamentum Graecum, cum lectionibus variantibus MSS, in 1707. He had roughly 100 manuscripts at his disposal. These were not “the original Greek manuscripts” as you mentioned. We don’t have those. We have copies of those and that is why there are variants. If they were the originals he would have found no errors because you don’t get variation until you make a copy. Today, 300 years later we have thousands more manuscripts than Mill had at his disposal. That also means we have more potential variants (somewhere around 150,000 of them according to Eberhard Nestle).
Mill’s work was critiqued by Johann Bengel around 1730? who was disturbed by so many variants. He collected a very large number of manuscripts and began to study these variants. His conclusion in evaluating Mill’s work was that ZERO of these variants did anything to shake a single Christian teaching or doctrine. The reason for that is that these variants often consist of a change in word order, or maybe a scribe is copying Mark but remembers the reading from Matthew and completes a sentence the way Matthew did in his Gospel. All of a sudden you have a variant. It is harmless. It is an error but not the kind of error people want you to believe. People hear that the Bible has errors and they either want to say “I told you so” or that it cannot be. Neither of these are warranted reactions if you understand the nature of these “errors”. That is why people call them textual variants because that is what they are and you can use that phrase accurately without unneccessarily conjuring up all the negative connotations that come with the word “error”.
Last, the problem you are having with reading the Gospels is that you are doing the vary thing you are saying other people are doing. You are reading meaning into them that is not really there. If you read the Gospels taking into consideration their genre as narratives and the art with which the different Gospel writers took to select which stories to include, which things to emphasize, etc you will see that your points don’t really work out very well. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are all emphasizing different aspects of the life of the same man. They all believed he was divine. They all believed he was Messiah. It is not that these doctrines were developing over time so that John was basically preaching a different message about Jesus than anyone who came before him.
Hope this is helpful to you. I appreciate your wanting to learn and grow in all of this and your willingness to engage in healthy dialog over some very important issues!
I should have cited Metzger’s “The Text of the New Testament” p.112 on my comment about Mill and Bengel and the no doctrine compromised part. Also, I want to point out that the vast majority things even as small as a different pronoun. Does that invalidate the Bible that some scribe changed out a pronoun on accident? And the biggest of these have already been mentioned, the 49 verses of the New Testament that are completely in question. But even then none of them have any doctrine hinging on them. No big deal.
i want to thank you for taking the time to discuss with them and teach more about the Bible. you have done a good job of explaining how the errors in the Bible are mainly a difference of word order and are mainly errors by scribes. I can understand how hard it is to write a whole book by hand because of the number of errors i used to find in my own typed term papers in Chapel Hill. However, you are telling me that Jesus is devine and i gave a quote straight from the horse’s mouth about how there is only one God and how this is in line with the old testement. do i believe you or do i believe the Messiah?
I also never understood why i never see christians praying to the Holy Ghost who is a member of trinity doctrine. Anyway i just know that any christian who studies the history of the Bible and how it was compiled will have to question. see if you can watch the youtube video of professor Robert Beckford and let me know what you think. he has a lot of series on the history of christianity
So we are finally to the main point! So first, I hope we can agree that the scriptures are reliable. Without that it is hard to move forward. So I hope I have addressed your points on that thoroughly enough.
Your next point is that you see a contradiction between the teaching that Jesus was divine, God but Jesus taught that there is only one God. How can both be true. You boil it down to whether or not you should believe me or the Messiah. You don’t have to disagree with me. Obviously you should believe the Messiah. So let me let Jesus teach you about this matter rather than just give you my opinion. These verses are also from the horse’s mouth:
John 8:48-59 – Jesus says he has the same name and eternal nature as God, the “I am”
John 10:22-39 – Jesus says he and the Father are one. Verse 33 shows that they understood him very well because they were going to stone him for blasphemy (because he was claiming to be God/divine). 10:34-36 clearly shows Jesus saw himself as God. Verse 38 shows Jesus said he was in the Father and the Father was in him. They share identity. This was not confusing to his listeners because they wanted to stone him for it.
Then there are verses not spoken by Jesus that teach this as well: John 1:1-5 & Heb 1:2-4. Revelation 4 and 5 have a parallel structure of praise that put God and Jesus on the same level of divinity like this:
Revelation 4————————–Revelation 5
God’s glory (4:2-8a)—————-Christ’s glory (5:5-7)
Worship of God (4:8b-11)——–Worship of the Lamb (5:8-12)
1st hymn (4:8b)———————1st hymn (5:9-10)
Narrative (4:9-10)——————Narrative (5:11-12a)
2nd hymn (4:11)——————-2nd hymn (5:12b)
That seems to purposefully equate God and Christ on the same level, worthy of the same praise and equally divine. That doesn’t mean God is two or three or fifty. They are one and the same (John 10:30). That does not contradict Jesus’ teaching in Mark 12 at all. I am sure you will disagree 🙂
Thank you again for the quick reply. I think you made my point for me because you qouted verses from the bible that imply that Jesus is God but nothing that is explicit from Jesus that Jesus says I AM GOD OR WORSHIP ME. you also made my earlier point for me that the Bible contradicts itself if on one hand it says Jesus is devine and on the other hand he Jesus says that there is only One true God and we should worship we got a problem my friend.
But lets say i agree with you that Jesus is God. For him to be God he most be All KNOWING, Infaliable powerfull and all the characteristics that makes humans woship God. However if you read the bible carefully you will that Jesus was not All Knowing if you read Mathew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. If you say there are no two GOds or 50 Gods but one God, that means what one knows the other one knows because it is one entity. If it is not one entity then that means we have two Gods. I hope you are following my logic. Another point to prove jesus is not all knowing and therefore not God almighty is found in Mark 11:13 “Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.” Come on men how can God almight not know that it is not the season for the fig tree to give out fruits let alone that particular tree. Another point to prove that jesus is not god. In James 1:13 the bible says God cannot be tempted and why then was jesus tempted by the devil if he is God. If you really want a real prove that jesus is a MAN not a GOD read Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know” it is in plain english Jesus is a man not GOD ALMIGHTY. I can go all day to let you know that Jesus but you set with your believe because you not coming with an open mind but rather you read what you want to hear. if you really want to respect Jesus Christ you will stop calling him Good like he said in mark 10:18 because only GOD the almight is GOOOD. Because Jesus Christ knows that he is a human being who is a great mesenger just like Moses, David Abraham and last but not the least Prophet Mohammad who by the way was preaching the same mesage that all the prophets before him preached THAT GOD ALMIGHTY IS ONE HE HAS NEVER BEEN BEGOTTEN NEIGHTHER DID HE BEGET. he is free from human attributes like forgeting, not knowing and lacking knowledge same short coming that Jesus Christ was suffering from.
This kind of discussion requires a ton of patience on the parts of both parties and I appreciate the patience and kindness you have shown in all of your comments. I am going to have to ask for even more patience as we move forward because these kinds of discussions would go a lot smoother face to face rather than through a blog. So before we add more scriptures to the mix, can we discuss the ones already brought up? I haven’t heard you address Jesus calling himself “I am” which is a divine title and also his teaching of his own pre-existence to creation in those verses. Also, I would like to hear your explanation of why the Lamb and God the Father are worshipped on par with each other in Revelation 4-5 if they are not equals. The structure of those two chapters is very specific, methodical and meaningful. Those are not just the words of John. That is inspired scripture, as are all the other verses I mentioned, and also were revealed to John through a vision that God gave him. So these things don’t have to come directly from the mouth of Jesus to be meaningful. I was using a few places where Jesus did speak on this to help move the conversation along since you were putting an emphasis on his own words. Is that fair? Can you respond to those couple points I made in my previous comment and then we can move on from there. I will be glad to address the points you are making. I just don’t want to see this shoot off in a dozen directions and lose focus. Thanks!
Thank you Matt for been very patient and also polite. I agree with you that such conversation is better had face to face but given the circumstance i think we both benefiting from such discussions.
I have discussed the points you had put about the Bible saying that Jesus is God. Infact if you read above i have agreed with you that there are some passages that imply that Jesus is Devine. I said that you were making my point that the Bible contradicts itself; in one point it says that Jesus is God and on the other clear indication that Jesus is not god and there is none other than One God. I did not make up stuff but rather i gave you evidence from the Bible itself and i would be happy to benefit from your analysis of the holy scriptures that i qouted to you above.
thanks
The Bible doesn’t contradict itself here at all and Jesus certainly doesn’t contradict himself (as you point to two things Jesus said that on the surface appear difficult). It is possible for Jesus to be divine and there still be one God. You know that is what Christians believe. Christians believe that not because they want to be heretics and have a doctrine that flies in the face of scripture. Christians believe that because that is how one puts the pieces together in order for both of those verses to be all be true simultaneously. I am sure that is not news to you but that is how Christians interpret that.
So let me ask this. Are you saying Jesus did not teach his own divinity? If you say yes and you affirm there is but One God (as do I) then you are in agreement with me that Jesus is divine, the Son of God but still one with the Father (as I noted in John 10:30) = still just one God. But if you say he was in error in those statements about his divinity are you saying he was lying or just false teaching at that point? Or is there a third option that I am just missing that you have come up with? Can you help me understand where you are coming from on those points?
My question is this if the Kjv is perfect then why is there more than one Kjv version? I like your comments Matt but your fighting a losing battle because Kjv onlyist are close-minded!!!!!!
Hi Sonya,
Thank you for this information. May God Bless you
Looks like this hasn’t been commented on in a long while but I just wanted to add in to this that the differences in the bibles are very small, but lets look at the big picture. We are not saved by our knowledge we are saved based on our faith. Even if there was a bible that was perfectly translated it would not matter because we are WEAK. We are not worthy!!!! We are saved 100% by the grace of God. We were given the word of God so that we can recognize how unworthy we are, and we are aware of our sins. And as far as I can tell of the missing verses and different translations, none of them are going to give us eternal life. That is the job of our Father in heaven who loves us so much that we cannot even imagine how much he loves us. Satan will try to ruin the bible but God will not let it happen. And for some of the people that are saying you can’t be truly saved if you read the niv version then shame on you. I would like to see where you get that knowledge from because only God knows that answer. Be grateful for the christian bible that you have regardless of the version because there are people dying in God’s world today without being able to read one verse. They would probably do anything in order to have A bible. It doesn’t matter what version because we are under God’s grace not the word.
Amazing, truly amazing! “Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and the same judgment…” (NKJV) Please re-read 1 Corinthians in its entirety, whether NIV, NASB, AMP, etc., etc., etc. We (professed/confessed Christians) will find ourselves in these words to the Corinthian church. I’ve been saved for well over 20 years and my first Bible (needless to say) was not a NIV. Yes, the first Bible I was acquainted with was the KJV. It was the big ole family Bible that sat in my family growing up as a child. You know the one with all the births, deaths and marriages in it. And it’s the KJV or NKJV that I resort to when I’m hurting and sick; when I need a word from the Lord to get me through and strengthen my faith. I have a NIV in my library, but I’m always drawn to NKJV. And over the years, I’ve purchased several other versions and Bible software to help me understand God’s word a little better as well as to defend my faith as 2 Pet 3:15 and Jude says. I want to be able to explain to every man the hope that’s in me. However, my greatest teacher has not been my life’s experience but the Holy Spirit. Nothing I’ve read in the NKJV or KJV has been contradictory from what he has shown me, spoke to me, or revealed to me. Never has He ever told me not read it (I know his voice from any other voices around me). And if anyone would know what should or should not be written in the Bible, He would. I’m a woman of limited education but even as Paul so am I, “For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” In other words, promote Jesus’ agenda and not your own. And again Paul says, “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel, to you than that we have preached to you, let be accursed.” So Matt, stay focus in just preach Jesus and him crucified and leave the other stuff to the Holy Spirit. If we, KJV onlyist, as blogger stated, are in error, be sure the Holy Spirit will correct us, before it’s too late. Besides was it not He who said, “I AM the Way, the Truth and Life.” Amen.
Ooops! that’s 1 Peter 3:15 instead. sorry…
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If God created the heaven (SINGULAR KJV all most other versions say heavens in GEN 1:1) then He can create a perfect english translation i don’t limit the power of GOD.
Nathan, is the irony in your post on purpose? In Hebrew “heavens” is plural in Gen 1:1. In your example, the KJV didn’t translate it correctly. That is not to say the KJV is a horrible translation. It was amazing in its day. The point is there is no perfect translation. I am not sure if you are aware of this but there are many versions of the KJV. It was revised over and over again. Why revisions? It had problems. So I am not sure why people push for the KJV to be the perfect translation. It makes no sense. You can say a translation is good or adequate without saying it has to be perfect.
They should have let the Holy Spirit guide them to translate, as only The Holy Spirit inspired them, initially to write the Bible. Oh Lord help us !
The NIV is written by modern day man who have changed and or omitted text to promote feel good mega churches, Include the homosexual lifestyle and not condemn that nor the feminist movement. NO CONDEMNATION. God’s word was inspired in the original text, has been written for several hundreds of years and now has been changed by modern day man trying to promote churches for profit and a feel good gospel that matches our “NO MORALS” times. “If it feels good do it!” I have read that the publishers of the NIV also put out several other books that may be a bit racey for God. One thing is for sure; A church that uses the NIV will soon find the church condoning same sex marriage, all forms of feminism which are against the teachings of the KJV, as well as giving the OK to any sin like divorce and fornication, for any reason, at one’s whim. Use the NIV at your own risk. If I had some I would rip them up and burn them so nobody else could get their hands on them. God help us all!
Jim,
Show me the proof of what you are saying. Give me examples of the following from the NIV book, chapter and verse:
– Changing or omitting text to promote feeling good, homosexuality, etc (none of the “missing verses” have anything to do with that)
– verses that were changed to “if it feels good, do it”
Anything else you would like to add from the actual NIV and not just I read this and I have read that about it. Show me the proof! If it is there, there is nothing to hide or fear. The truth is the truth so if it is as you say put out the verses you are talking about so we can discuss those from the NIV. Thanks.
The various english translations of the Bible have all been evaluated to determine their literal and technical accuracy. They are also evaluated as to the “grade level” of understanding that they are written. If I am correct, the NIV is written at approximately the sixth grade level while translations such as the NASB and KJV are written at more of a college level of comprehensoin for full understanding. With that being said, the NIV may have its place for new converts and young christians but as we mature it is equally important for us to be able to gain the most knowledge possible and the more technically accurate versions may be where we need to focus our enery rather than the “dumbing down” or our ability or opportunity to understand.
This is actually linked to a recent mail notification for “The 49 easiest verses to memorize in the Bible” … which seems to be a mismatch.
I hesitate to say anything on posting that started so long ago, but I will say that I think that it would benefit people considering this type of topic if they used comparisons to how Data Recovery is done in real life for practical applications.
For example, no one cares that no one has the “original manuscript” of Windows OS, but it doesn’t prevent someone from detecting if they have a damaged copy. In fact, when considering something as ancient as Windows 3.1, you will be guaranteed that an “original manuscript” will certainly be flawed. Those 5.25″ floppy disks are somewhat analogous to papyrus.
The analogy breaks down at a certain point, but the science of data recovery (the logic and techniques) are still applicable when applied to manuscript evidence. It should bear some consideration when the (two) supposed “oldest and most reliable manuscripts” stand in stark disagreement to each other, and when the only way a manuscript would survive that long is by being shelved away (evidence that it was not used.)
Imagine that you were trying to reconstruct the “originals” of a computer data CD, and you knew that some of them were accurate, and others had been tampered with. It’s easier to tamper with a new manuscript than a CD, but harder to get people to accept a “new reading” that only appears in your handwriting. People would tend to recognize the original reading, stick with those manuscripts, and reuse and recopy them instead.
With this hypothetical CD scenario, the worn and scratched disks (even though they might have some damage) would be the correct way to rebuild the actual program down to the exact byte. Likewise, copies of copies (even if they had scratches) would be valid, and would testify that someone thought it worthwhile to back up a working disk. Disks that were unscratched would testify that they were seldom used, and one might have to wonder why.
Even without that consideration, if you were to recover 100 disks (and scratches, aberrations, and even damage can easily be recovered by comparing like examples) and 95% of them stand in agreement with each other, this majority agreement bears significant weight compared to a few aberrations that would omit various portions. Just because someone has one or two disks that are older does not mean that it’s legitimate (it is likely a beta version or a hacked copy.) This is especially to be considered when the two oddballs are vastly different from one another!
The difference between the computer data recovery example and manuscripts is that we have no divine guarantee that God cares about preserving a copy of Windows 3.1, but we do have passages where we are told that God has promised to preserve his word. There’s method, motive, and opportunity at stake, and the factors are not anywhere near as complex as they are made out to be. It’s not a question of “1000’s of differing manuscripts” but more like a couple different branches of readings (one is usually in the clear majority) and occasional aberrations (like a defect in a data file that can be detected by being compared with other copies.)
It would be really nice to see people willing to look at these issues objectively (without worrying about what others will think of them). It seems to me that the main motivations are often tradition and anti-tradition, neither of which are very good reasons. Care should be taken to avoid misrepresentation by shallow reasoning, faulty reasoning, or even being right for the wrong reasons.
By the way… there are some pretty big doctrinal differences between the various versions, even including those that are sometimes passed off as being “the same except for the thee’s and thous.” It’s not that “no major doctrine is effected.” Assuming that doctrine is derived from (and constantly proved) from scripture, rather than tradition, fuzzy feeling, impression, it’s not merely an academic exercise. Yet, doctrine should be derived from scripture, rather than choosing scripture to match doctrine (sadly, I know authors that argue the opposite view.)
When I saw this, I thought, “Wow, Matt’s opening that can of worms again?” 🙂 Then I saw the number of comments.
So, no, I haven’t read the whole discussion. I just want to throw into the mix that much that is said about God’s Word being preserved seems to assume that it being preserved for English speakers is enough. That is, if the KJV is God’s perfect preserved version, then speakers of other languages are out of luck.
There is NO version in another language that matches up 100% with the KJV. That’s a linguistic impossibility. So if God’s promise to preserve His Word is fulfilled in the KJV and not in other versions in English, then speakers of other languages apparently didn’t receive the same promise.
I’m glad that God’s promises don’t depend on the linguistic abilities of human beings.
Grace and peace,
Tim
Hey Tim… it’s good that you’re thinking of things like that.
If we allow God’s word to be preserved in Hebrew, we should consider that Hebrew is not a language that has been spoken by many people at all. It’s a rather obscure and specialized language.
On the other hand, if we allow God’s word to be preserved in Greek, that was a world encompassing language at its time. Not everyone spoke Greek, but it was the language of learning and commerce. Sort of like …. modern English, except English is more widespread today than Greek ever was in its time.
If we allow God’s word to be preserved exclusively only in Hebrew and Greek, then you have an even worse dilemma… everyone today, save perhaps a tiny handful (how many people really read Hebrew and Greek and are truly fluent) would have access.
If one allows God to preserve his word in the first place, you’ve got a much bigger problem if it’s only allowed to be in Hebrew and Greek, most especially since Hebrew and Greek have fallen out of common use. But I think that this specific question could bear some more thought and/or discussion… maybe there’s an underlying assumption that could bear addressing?
Is it unreasonable to consider that God might refresh his target language every couple thousand of years? I know that some consider the spread of the Greek language worldwide (via Alexander) before the birth of Christ as part of the plan to spread Christianity.
A few thoughts. Hebrew was more encompassing in the 1400-1000 BC timeframe than you might think. There were several languages that all had the same roots that were pretty prevalent at that time. These are the Semitic languages that include Aramaic, Phonecian, and the language used at Ugarit. The even cracked the language of Ugarit using Hebrew because they are so closely connected, just with different alphabets. So Hebrew and its associated languages were more prevalent than you might think.
There is a difference in God preserving his word verbatim in every instance and God preserving his word generally speaking including once it has been translated into other languages. Since we don’t have the autographs we have textual variants. Once you have variants, someone has to make a decision in each instance on what is most likely to be the original. I wouldn’t say God’s word has been diminished at that point or even at the point of translation into another language. God’s Word still rings true. God is a better communicator than we give him credit for 🙂
Can you help me understand what you mean by this, “Is it unreasonable to consider that God might refresh his target language every couple thousand of years?”
God is targeting people. So I would guess God would want his word accessible to every language in existence to reach as many people as possible. So I am not sure why we would be talking about one target language because God is not exclusive in these matters.
Hello Matt. Before addressing your question, I’d like to recognize something else you also brought up:
There’s a lot of variety in what someone might mean when they say “God’s word” and I think a lot of confusion results when someone doesn’t define their term, or when someone assumes one thing in place of another meaning.
1) it might be used to refer to specific literal words in written language
2) it might be used to refer to specific literal words in spoken language
3) it might be used to refer to general words in written or spoken language
Although I recognize that any of those three might be valid, I want to make sure what we’re actually discussing. I am assuming we’re looking at the claim and/or possibility for God to preserve his word (his actual intended meaning) through his words (specific chosen words) in a language other than Hebrew.
There’s usually an underlying assumption here that should be addressed. That “someone” who makes the decision might be God himself, who is allowed to use obvious and subtle means of direction. I’m just pointing out that it’s only a forgone conclusion that these decisions are invariably error-prone when God is left out of the picture.
Also, I also want to mention that there aren’t that many textual variants. There’s usually only a couple types of readings, and even when you have 1000’s of manuscripts that are yet unread, they invariably fall into one of the existing readings.
He’s also a better translator that many people are willing to allow. Consider this for a moment: what else would you call the miracle of speaking in tongues as recorded early in the book of Acts? Each and every person heard the words in their own language and dialect. My point being, is that I’m suggesting that God could correctly translate his written word into any number of languages.
I mean simply that God isn’t limited to Hebrew and Greek, and that a translation is not necessarily inferior to its source. In fact, if a translation becomes necessary (such as if the original languages become obsolete) it could be argued that a translation can actually be superior.
Ah, now we might be getting somewhere. Granted, God is targeting people in general, but not necessarily every individual person at this time. I think that common observation can prove this point. Was the gospel preached to the Chinese peasant or the Australian aborigine that died in AD 42?
Let’s think about this second item also. Does God want his word accessible to every language in existence to reach as many people as possible… at this time? If so, then it wouldn’t seem that he’s doing very well. See the peasant and aborigine examples above. We should talk about this… rather than just dancing around the tip of an iceberg.
But…. God has been exclusive in these matters before, hasn’t he? What advantage was it in being a Jew?
Rom 3:1-2
(1) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
(2) Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
That is, we can see that God has been exclusive as to his keeping of the oracles of God in the past, so there is nothing that would require him to preserve his oracles in every language upon the earth at every point in time. God chose Hebrew in the past, and because of the spread of Greek and its transmission of the New Testament we also assume that he chose Greek for a time.
I remember a young Jewish king who found the law after it had become forgotten and lost for a while. The scripture was preserved, but that doesn’t mean everyone was guaranteed access. And weren’t the scriptures practically buried for a very long time, including the infamous Dark Ages? But, if someone were to seek and to knock, to pray “open the eyes of the King of England”… might God answer the prayers of martyrs that sought to bring the scriptures to light for the common people? Don’t we have scripture that tells us that God can be thus persuaded, that he is not immune to appeal, that he would not give us a stone for an egg?
I think I understand where you’re thinking here, and the answer might be with that iceberg about whether God is really trying to reach everyone right now (but if that is the actual game plan, how well is it working?)
God wills that all would come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). So yes, God does want every single person alive to hear the Gospel. Also, how can people know unless someone goes and preaches to them (Rom 10:14ff)? How will they understand unless it is in their language. Language is important and we are God’s instruments to make the translations necessary to reach various people groups (see joshuaproject.net if you get a chance). God isn’t dropping finished translations down into various people groups that came straight from his hand. God expects us to get that job done.
Does God inspire translation? I am certain God can use godly mean to translate something that is incredibly accurate. Does that mean every choice, every word of every translation is straight from the mouth of God? Certainly not. Take the KJV. It has been revised a dozen or more times for various mistakes made by the translators. For instance, the 1611 KJV had Matthew 26:36 say, “Then cometh Judas” instead of “then cometh Jesus”. I don’t think that was an inspired mistake. So how far do you take it? That doesn’t mean everything is in question either.
You wrote, “Also, I also want to mention that there aren’t that many textual variants. There’s usually only a couple types of readings, and even when you have 1000′s of manuscripts that are yet unread, they invariably fall into one of the existing readings.”
It is one thing to say there aren’t many textual variants and quite another to say there aren’t many of significance. According to Nestle (who has done a lot of work compiling NT manuscripts and Greek texts) there are roughly 150,000 textual variants in the New Testament. Many of those are easily worked out. Some are a lot more difficult to figure out what is more likely the original reading. No major doctrine hinges on those variations but they do influence the conclusions here as to whether or not God is in the process of inspiring entire Bible translations into various languages today. If he is, how do we account for the differences among versions and which are more inspired than others? 😉
Last, I am curious where you hear there are thousands of unread manuscripts. Can you point me to a source on that?
You’re answering a different question than what I asked. I am not contesting that God intends to reach all people, that he willing that all men be saved, and so on and so forth. I’m pointing out that the evidence shows that God isn’t doing all of that right now, certainly not for every person. See the Chinese peasant and the Australian aborigine examples.
If your answer is that God isn’t finished yet, it still leaves the thorny problem that people were born and died without ever seeing a speck of the gospel. Did it arrive in time for them? No, it didn’t. Therefore, an argument that God has to make his word available in every language falls short. God has been exclusive in the past, and history shows that common folk have not always had access to the Word. That’s simply the facts. If we will be honest, it is our job to determine what those facts mean.
I do have a question about this thing you just said though… specifically, what 1611 King James bible are you using as your source?
Mat 26:36 KJV-1611
(36) Then commeth Iesus with them vnto a place called Gethsemane, and saith vnto the Disciples, Sit yee heere, while I goe and pray yonder.
Printing errors (or even a child scrubbing with crayons) are not fair considerations when determining the content of a translation. I am guessing that in your copy the printer had accidentally substituted a “d” for an “s.”
Regardless, if this was fixed in a later printing, problem solved, right? When God speaks of his words, he talks about silver purified seven times. Why would you purify something if there wasn’t such a thing as dross to begin with? Since we’re considering Matthew 26:36, what does your King James bible from the shelf say at that place? To err may be human, but to refine is divine.
I would think that the accounting would be to determine fair rules, and perform testing, observe, and measure the results. In some circles this is called the scientific method.
Now, logically, if one or more parties to have a perfect translation or a perfect bible (some do) then how would this be tested? It is a mathematical axiom that one cannot prove a negative. Thus, the way to settle the question would be to prove flaws in something that is claimed to be flawless.
Now, if two versions conflict, it seems to me that one or both are wrong. That would be a logical deduction, right? How can two witnesses that disagree both be right?
I’ll add an additional consideration into the mix. If something is being developed or refined (like rough drafts, or precious metal) and the process is unfinished, it is not fair to go seek out earlier versions in the refining process for the sake of proclaiming error. Judge the finished product.
For example, I consider that William Tyndale might have had special help when working on his translation of the Old and New Testaments. However, when he mixes terms like “ester lambe” and “paschall lamb” (Luke 22:15 vs. John 18:28) it would be hard to say that this was a perfected work. Nor was it…. Tyndale was a work in progress, and when he was killed by others, others took up the fight in his place.
So… it would be important to consider 1) source as well as 2) translational aspects. If you were asked to test the “perfect bible” claim, what tests would you come up with?
Most of the manuscripts in existence have not been analyzed, and remain unread. So the claims of having “so many more manuscripts” is somewhat misleading. Those manuscripts aren’t really being used, and even if they were, they’re not changing the balance as to the majority readings.
No, I cannot offer you a source on that this very minute, but you should be able to verify that through other sources with due diligence. I thought it was pretty much well recognized that the sheer body of manuscripts wasn’t something that was expected to be processed before Christ’s return.However, when you consider the trend of what we already have, it’s highly unlikely that the trend will reverse. U.S. Presidential elections are decided (and conceded) before all the votes are in, and those run a lot closer than what we use to determine Majority Readings.
Your KJV is a corrected one. The original had what I put in my comment above. Google the phrase “then cometh Judas” and you will see it. The thing is,it is more than a single printing error. There were 413 changes/corrections made in 1613. By 1659 an additional 20,000 errors had been found across the different editions that had been published since 1611. By the 19th century there were 24,000 variants in the KJV itself among the six different editions published to date. Get that, six different KJVs by the 1800s. That is because it was revised over and over. Why the need for revision? It had mistakes. Inspired mistakes?
Additionally the KJV inserted English phrases that had ZERO biblical support then or now. Here are three examples: Rev 5:14 they added “Him that liveth forever and ever”. Eph 3:14 they added “of our Lord Jesus Christ” and Rom 8:1 they added “who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit”. There are all kinds of issues here. My point is that I do believe God can help men come to a favorable translation. I don’t see God dictating the translation to them because of things like this.
So I do think God preserves his word over time but I don’t subscribe to a dictation theory of translation. I would be careful of even subscribing to a dictation theory of original inspiration. We can talk about that more if you like. I still respect the text. I believe the originals are inspired and I think God wants us to work and study through these things and reach as many people as possible.
Lest this part be lost,
Granted that God wants us to work and study these things and reach as many people as possible, but do we admit that this foolishness of preaching (Paul’s words, not mine) has already failed to reach some people (in any way or opportunity) at all?
If so, then I think we have to conclude that God isn’t depending upon reaching every person that ever lived with translations into every language on the earth today.
But you’re not categorizing “then cometh Judas” as a translation error. It seems to me that you’re actually taking up issue with the printing technology of the time, with the medium, rather than the material. Mass production of print was a new technology, and even things like standardized spelling were new concepts back then… something we usually take for granted today.
Why would pure silver that was buried in the earth need to be refined? If you’re evaluating the authorized text (it seems that you are) you’re not looking at the finished product. The standard 1769 King James (which is what anyone here probably has on a bookshelf) is what we ought to be comparing. I wouldn’t judge the NIV on printing errors, not unless the publishers refused to correct them!
Are you choosing these your test cases? I ask because when something is placed for examination, there are an infinite amount of claims that can be placed against that thing, and a proper analysis takes far more resources than the claim. I have looked at one example (because I was only able to find one) where Beza inserted a couple words without manuscript support.
That sounded rather shocking to me, but when it was looked at with the surrounding evidence, it actually made sense, and he had sound reasoning. The existing mss (and there were only a couple) that were supposed to have the passage in question were flawed. Believe me, I do investigate these things seriously (I probably saved the study on my hard drive.)
I am skeptical about the three examples you’ve chosen, but I do not have a lot of free time resources right now, so that’s why I’m asking if those are your test cases. If so, then if there are good answers then it should count for something. However, if your mind is actually being made up by something else, let’s look at that.
But please let me explain why I’m skeptical. Even just looking at the last claim that “Romans 8:1 was added with ZERO biblical support” it’s already contradicted by folk that oppose that portion of the verse already. Just a quick Google search yields this quote:
courtesy of the heritagebbc site obtained by Google search on “does romans 8:1 belong in our bible” I find:
Please note that Dr Ryrie says “best manuscripts” and not “any manuscripts.” That’s why I’m asking, are these really your test cases? If so, I think 1 of the 3 (the 3rd one) is already answered. Romans 8:1 does have manuscript support, just not from Aleph or Beta (though it’s quite a stretch to call these “best manuscripts” methinks.)
When you look up these three passages in your normal off-the-shelf King James Bible, are these phrases in italics? Italicized words are added without direct manuscript support, but if they are not italicized, then they did have manuscript support.
1. In Romans 8;1, the only italicized words are the first two, “There is.”
2. In Ephesians 3:14, there are no italicized words.
3. In Revelation 5:14, the only italicized word is the word “and.”
So maybe I’m misunderstanding, but it seems to me that because the King James translators admitted when the added words (it was not kept secret) that the absence of admission should count as some sort of weight, lacking further evidence. Who told you that these passages were inserted with zero biblical support? What did they actually say?
I’m not familiar with this theory, but assuming I understand what you’re implying, why would dictation be required for a perfect translation? God sometimes appears in a fire or a cloud, but he can also direct hearts and minds in subtle ways as well.
I think this would be great to talk about. Have you ever looked into the arguments surrounding 1 John 5:7? That seems to be one of the dividing lines as to what counts as responsible translation, and as such it might make a good point for study.
Oh, sorry… this showed up in my RSS feed and I thought it was a new discussion. Sorry to keep beating a dead horse.
apparently the horse wasn’t dead enough 🙂
I was understanding you to say God inspires the translators to do their job. I took issue with that by bringing up the 1611 KJV and the thousands of errors they had to go back and correct, phrases they used that have never appeared in any Greek manuscript we have to date/no textual support, and I could have mentioned more but left it there…all to point out that God doesn’t inspire mistakes, right? So where do we draw the line? So you dropped the 1611 KJV and said what we really need to look at is the “finished product” of the 1769 KJV. There are several problems with your line of reasoning. First, there was a point in time the 1611 was considered the finished product. Second, the 1769 KJV has issues as does the 1984 NIV as does the 2012 NIV as does the TNIV as does the RSV and NRSV not to mention the Message and New Living Bible. They all have issues, problems, errors, poor translations. Which translation is inspired? Are you saying the 1769 KJV is but none other or they all are just with issues?
We might have a slight misunderstanding. I only presented reasoning to demonstrate that it was within God’s ability to inspire translators to do their job. I think I also said that this would not be outside of God’s character. Past that so far we’re running on a lot of assumptions without proper support.
I think we need some more authentication for your proposed examples of mistakes. I have tried to use some biblical analogies (like silver, Psalms 12:6) but I might also borrow another image of clay in the hands of a potter. If you look at the clay at the wrong time it looks like a mistake, yet this would be a part of the inspiration process.
I wasn’t defending the 1611 KJV to begin with. I have put the 1611 (at least my copy) through a lot of tests and I have not been able to find source or translation flaw, but I still don’t think it was the finished product.
I don’t see how this constitutes a reasoning flaw. Without picking fault for printing problems and standardized spelling (the printing process was new and standardized spelling didn’t exist yet) it was a suited for the time… just like you don’t fault the Commodore 64 for not having USB 3.0 support.
The question of “inspiration” is rather difficult and difficult to measure. But as for your question about “inspiration” that’s probably an issue of faith. But there’s different types of faith. There’s the the fuzzy unsupported fluffy faith, the unthinking but adamant faith, and there’s also a faith that results when something is tested over and over again and found to be faithful.
Personally, I think the entire process of the English bible from Tyndale all the way through the King James had God’s hand in it, and it (the end product) has stood against the tests. The 1611 was good, but standardized spelling really added a lot.
Past that, other attempts I’ve seen to “modernize” it has introduced mistakes: I can find problems with the NKJV and the Modern King James Version, but not the 21st Century KJV (it passed my tests). The NIV, RSV, and Message all have some pretty bad problems – there’s enough biblical contradictions (self contradictions, mistakes, etc) in those that I wouldn’t venture to call them inspired.
So which am I going to use? If I am talking to someone, do I really want to have to explain why a particular verse cannot be believed at face value because it is in error?
A question for thought (answer when you can): when someone hands you an unfamiliar translation, do you have any particular tests that you apply to it to get a sense of whether it is accurate and reliable? I’m asking for some objectivity here. For example, if you think there are “issues” and “problems” with bibles, what do you look for? Let’s lay aside preconceptions and try to be objective.
“We might have a slight misunderstanding. I only presented reasoning to demonstrate that it was within God’s ability to inspire translators to do their job”
– So you are presenting things you don’t necessarily agree with? As far as errors in the KJV I will give you some more examples tomorrow. I guess it is not enough to say that there were 20,000 revisions made to the 1611 to say it had issues? I will help you out with some more examples when I get a minute in the morning.
“Personally, I think the entire process of the English bible from Tyndale all the way through the King James had God’s hand in it.”
– I agree with that. I just wouldn’t call it inspiration on par with biblical inspiration.
As for your last question. I want something translated by committee, not by an individual. It must be based on the original languages and not a paraphrase. Then there are a few passages I typically turn to in order to see how particular words were translated in order to see if there is any immediate bias/doctrines that are being pressed that affect the translation.
By the way, loved the Commodore 64 reference 🙂
No, it’s just prudent to establish small steps rather than running ahead of oneself. Clarifying, I was only saying what I was prepared to providing reasoning for in that post.
For example, if I am talking with someone who says that there is no God, I don’t immediately start with Jesus (even though that’s my eventual goal.) I may ask if they could reasonably allow for the possibility of a creator (why or why not) or if they dismiss all evidence of the supernatural. You get agreement at the first points and then move forwards. Any other approach usually winds up being a bunch of arguing that isn’t going to solve anything, nor result in agreement.
Quick thoughts (post note: I thought this would be quick):
1) Thinking of Martin Luther and William Tyndale, I wouldn’t necessarily rule out something translated by a single person.
2) Basing upon original languages is a good rule… though it might be worth consulting translations from other languages (Latin, Syriac, etc) when considering manuscript evidence.
3) I’d be curious as to what passages you use for test cases. For example, I will read Genesis 1:1 to get a sense of the language, John 1 to see what they did with the Word, Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, Luke 23:43, the reference to behemoth in Job, the pascha (Passover vs. Easter) reference in Acts (the one that follows the days of unleavened bread), 1 Timothy 3:16, and 1 John 5:7 (the versions that omit this portion have to answer why their chosen Greek text suffers from improper grammar.)
Also Acts 2:34,Matthew 22:13, Revelation 20:10 (that one gets mangled a lot) … and usually a few others. Maybe 2 Kings 8:26 (to see if they’re being faithful to the Hebrew rather than trying to correct it.) I try to get about ten so I can think in easy percentages.
Aside from Genesis 1;1, all of those hit upon doctrinal hot spots in their own ways, so it isn’t just about trivial changes in wording. My point being that this isn’t about just being silly, sticky, traditional, or trivial. These words really do matter in some pretty large ways.
Care to share some examples of the types of checks you use? I’d also explain what I’m looking for (and why) on my examples, if you’d like.
John 5:4 – is it there or missing? https://mattdabbs.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/the-case-of-the-missing-verse-john-54/ )
Acts 2:38 – what did they do with “eis”?
Romans 7:18 & 25 – what did they do with “sarx” – flesh or more dynamic equivalence/big time interpreting “sinful nature” (like the NIV)
Rom 1:13 – is it gender inclusive
These are not “make it or break it” tests for a translation. They just help me get an idea for what approach is being used. Is it more literal or is it more dynamic equivalence? Is it gender inclusive? Do they mess with baptism by manipulating the text? Etc. Hope that is helpful.
I did read your linked blog post on John 5:4, and thought that the presentation seemed a little lopsided (Metzger was the only source.) I have some thoughts to contribute.
* John 5:4 is the majority text reading.
* That passage doesn’t even make sense without verse 4. Why would a sick person want to be put in the water when it was troubled? The account would obviously be missing a piece.
* Early Fathers cite the account from as far back as the 3rd and 4th centuries, including Tertullian, Ambrose, and Chrysostom.
* Manuscript evidence for John 5:4 dates back to the 4th and 6th centuries (Latin and Greek)
I’ve heard it said that one should always be careful to listen to both sides of an issue. In your blog article Metzger is only one side (and he’s had to make retractions about spreading a false story concerning 1 John 5:7 before… he has some bias.) Have you seen any of the evidence discussed at Google’s “should john 54 Angel at the pool be in the bible” … ?
“He that is first in his own cause seemeth just” (Proverbs 18:17)
I think the author there at that article I referenced (I’m not putting the direct link because that seems to block posts from going through, but it’s the “KJV Today” site) answers Metzger pretty well, including the charge that the words are “non-Johannine.” I can’t vouch for the rest of the site (not being familiar with it) but I think that it might be good to consider reasons why the majority text stayed in the majority.
How would the passage even make sense without verse 4? It seems to me that the original writings ought to make sense.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. I do like to be as even handed as possible. However, I don’t always spend time making supporting arguments for things I don’t agree with.
1 – Majority text reading. This is true. It was the reading from the Textus Receptus (“Received text” which is what the KJV translators used). Majority reading is not always the original reading. Here is the logic. If you have the original, there aren’t errors in it. If you copy it there will be few to none. If you copy those copies 10 times each by different people, errors start to crop out. Now copy those errors over and over for 1000 years and all of a sudden the majority reading (most common reading) are those with the errors because people had copied that error for 1000 years. You can’t line up all the manuscripts from the earliest to the latest, count which is the most common word in all instances and make the most accurate Greek or Hebrew text by that approach because of the problem I just laid out.
What is even more disturbing is that the KJV reflects phrases that haven’t ever been found in any Greek manuscript.
2 – Just because the passage doesn’t make sense to you today, 2000 years later doesn’t mean it made no sense to them. The text doesn’t read choppy without it.
3 – This is certainly tradition but not necessarily scripture
4 – 4th and 6th century manuscripts are certainly old and certainly much older than what the KJV translators had at their disposal (around 20 or so Greek NT texts from 1100 or so and only a single text of the LXX to work from). We now have over 5k texts to help us make these decisions. Even texts from the 4th and 6th centuries are going to vary to some degree. It is entirely possible that the tradition of the church fathers made scribes feel the need to insert the verse to help explain to later readers what is going on in the story.
Let me give you a few things to look up on the KJV. I am pulling these examples from Jack Lewis’ book from the KJV to the NIV, p.42ff. Rather than explain a bunch of things you seem like the type who likes to look these things up for yourself and come to your own conclusions, always a good thing 🙂
2 Kings 7:13 – errors in repeating of words
Verses that lack mss support (Mtt 17:21, 18:11, 23:14, Mark 7:16, 9:44/46, 11:26, 15:28, Luke 17:36, 23:17, John 5:4, Acts 8:37, 15:34, 24:7, 28:29 and Romans 16;24
Other additions (not involving a whole verse) – Matt 6:4, 6 & 18 – added “openly”
“without cause” added Matt 5:22
Rev 5:14 – added “him that liveth forever and ever” = Zero known Greek support. I am curious of your take on that one.
“I trow not” – Luke 17:9
“For thine is the kingdom, and the power and the glory forever and ever” added in Matt 6:13
“and he trembling and astonished said, “lord what wilt though have me to do> and the Lord said unto him…” (Acts 9:6) – Zero known Greek support. Again, curious how you would work that out. Apparently Erasmus included that phrase into the TR based on his own translation from the Vulgate in 15:16 (Lewis, 43)
Heb 11:13 added “and were persuaded of them”
1 John 4:19 has an addition that completely changes the meaning of the verse when they added/supplied “him”
1 John 5:7 is a biggie that was in the TR due to Erasmus including a phrase there known as the Comma Johanneum in order to support trinitarianism. See here – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum and that is in the 1611 KJV even though it is a minority reading. It was done not because the texts supported it but because it supported their view of the trinity.
Rev 22:19 – no known Greek mss have “book of life”
Scribal additions and postscripts in the 1611 KJV: “amen” at the end of Matthew’s Gospel, postscript at the end of 1 Cor. Scribal additions – Acts 9:5, Rom 7:6, 89:1, 2 Cor 1:6, Rev 1:8 & 11, 2:3 & 20, 5:10, 15:3, 16:5, 17:16, 18:2 and more
Then there are the omissions…phrases that later were found in earlier manuscripts that actually did make more sense of the passage – Mtt 24:36 – “nor the son”, Acts 4:25 – “by the Holy Spirit”, Acts 16:7 – “the spirit of Jesus”, Rom 8:28 – had lost “God” as the subject, 1 Peter 2:2 “unto salvation” was dropped where it was later to be discovered in earlier mss. On and on we could go – Gen 4:8, 44:4-5, Judges 16:13, 1 Sam 10:1, 14:41, John 19:3, 1 Thess 4:1, 1 John 3:1, etc
Then there are translation and paraphrase issues like “God save the king” in 1 Sam 10:24 and “Give up the ghost” (Gen 25:8) for a verb that simply means “to expire”. Amos 4:4 reads “tithes after three years” where the text literally reads just “three days”. Psalm 8:5 translates “elohim” and angels but that isn’t correct. Probably an attempt to sound monotheistic.
Lewis gives several pages to Greek words that were not properly understood when the KJV was translated that we now have more light on today, which enables us to have a more accurate translation.
Here is the point – humans are involved in this process. It isn’t a perfect process. There are going to be mistakes. YOu are going to take issue with every single translation in some way, shape or form but you have to live with that. God’s word is still in there and we can still learn what God wants today even though the delivery system is imperfect in the sense that translations will always be lacking.
Matt, this is something that we need to talk over directly. For example, your “zero manuscript support” charges … I’ve already dealt with three of those, and they had manuscript support.
I’ve spot checked a few more, and they passed as well (no italics). The 1 John 5:7 story you just repeated…. that was propagated by Metzger, it was false, and he even retracted that in his 3rd edition. I cannot even make sense of some of the charges… like “2 Kings 17:3, error repeating words?” What is that supposed to mean? The only words that occur more than once are “him” and “and” (what is supposedly repeated?) How are you coming up with these?
So, no, tossing 100-200 claims at me and then saying I should “do my own research” is not very convincing. If you’re going to say (and believe) something, you should be ready to reexamine it with someone else when challenged. So far it seems to me that I’m the one that’s researched this more (but I’m not saying that I’m unwilling to reexamine.)
If I were to make a ton of claims, and you were to pick 5-6 at random and find that they had zero merit, how much credit would you be willing to grant me for the other 94? You’d want me to slow down and speak in my own words, not simply say “do your own research”, right?
Andrew,
Scan the above posts. You have made a ton of claims. More than me or anyone else for that matter. I will get to this when I have some more time and back up some of this. If it proves out that I am wrong then I will say I was wrong.
Can you show me where Metzger recanted on 1 John 5:7? I am looking all over but can’t find it. All I can find is that the words first appear in Medieval Greek texts.
To establish context, first from Wikipedia, under “Comma_Johanneum”
But from Metzger in his 3rd edition,
“What is said on p. 101 above about Erasmus’ promise to include the Comma Johanneum if one Greek manuscript were found that contained it, and his subsequent suspicion that MS 61 was written expressly to force him to do so, needs to be corrected in the light of the research of H. J. DeJonge, a specialist in Erasmian studies who finds no explicit evidence that supports this frequently made assertion.” Bruce M. Metzger, The Text of The New Testament, 3rd Edition, p 291 fn 2.
In general, pretty much all that you said about 1 John 5:7 seems to fall in line with what I’ve seen out of a short paper from Dallas Theological Seminary… but it’s inaccurate (wrong.) If we have to pick a test case, let’s pick 1 John 5:7, and if the evidence shows that someone has been telling a wrong story or suppressing evidence, I think that should bear some consideration.
By the way, when researching the earlier manuscripts and quotations from the Fathers, although Tertullian does not provide an exact quote, he does dispute Praxaes reading of the verse (demonstrating that it is not merely a Trinitarian gloss) and Priscillian quotes the passage and attributes it to being written by John.
If you’d like to do some quick research on your own (the type that would only take a couple minutes) it would be good to check on the Matthew Henry and John Gill commentaries, and we could proceed from there. E-sword has the commentaries for free download (but if you’re using a Mac that may not be compatible with E-sword.)
Thanks for looking that up. I just had a look in the book and was really surprised that they left that in a footnote on page 291 and left the story intact on p. 101 with no footnote there. It is probably because it was revised and expanded and since they didn’t know to correct it in earlier editions they only footnoted it in one instance of 1 John 5:7 and missed footnoting that in the actual story or even correcting the story itself and making the story a footnote instead. I have read that book in the past but never noticed that correction in the notes. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
You’re very welcome. Thanks for the objective response.
The problem with something like that (the unsubstantiated story) is that once it gets spread, it’s oft repeated and almost impossible to reign back in, so the majority of the damage is still done in spite of a footnoted retraction, which apparently can be overlooked even by people that read the whole book. Thanks for the verification.
So, if you’re up to looking at this 1 John 5:7 question some more with me, this could get very interesting. Shall we approach it step by step, so we can examine perhaps why Erasmus, Tyndale, and England’s best translators accepted the passage as genuine in spite of its minority status within the Greek manuscripts?
If you want to talk more about 1 John 5:7 that is fine. To me, if the story has no validity then that is fine. What I still haven’t heard is that there actually are other mss that contain that phrase. It is one thing for the origin of the phrase to be made up and another thing for the verses to rightfully be there. I am still not seeing those words in early texts of 1 John 5:7. Any ideas on that? As for me, I would rather move on to other verses that have merit than spend more time discussing one that has already been shown to be without merit.
Rev 5:14 is in the 1551 TR of Erasmus so one would think it had some sort of textual support but I can’t find any. When I try to find anything on it all I can find are lists of mss that don’t containt “him that liveth forever and ever” and I can’t find any that do. It is in the TR and thus in the 1611 KJV but why was it in the TR if it had no textual support (if that is in fact the case)? Here is a helpful link – https://openscriptures.org/prototypes/manuscript-comparator/?passage=Revelation+5:14&view=parallel&ins%5B%5D=1&ins%5B%5D=2&ins%5B%5D=3&ins%5B%5D=4&del%5B%5D=5&del%5B%5D=6&del%5B%5D=7&strongs=1
The majority of Greek manuscripts omit the phrase, and as a result the grammatical construction of the passage is fatally flawed. Gregory of Nazanius even commented on the obvious error in the abbreviated text (and I think it should be evident that he understood the Greek.)
The full passage has suffered damage in the Greek manuscripts, but it has survived in a few, and this reading is the only alternative reading that satisfies the “wholeness” of the passage, both grammatically and for internal meaning.
However, in spite of damage in the Greek manuscripts, the passage is extremely well preserved in the Latin manuscripts, and Jerome is on the record as complaining that lazy scribes had a tendency to omit this very passage (1 John 5:7) while they were transcribing the Greek to Latin. So apparently, the Greek manuscripts of Jerome also had the passage.
There’s something else to consider here: besides the problem of lazy scribes (who might be tired and skip over an area because it seems like a repetition) … would anyone have had motive to want the passage to be removed? Besides the obvious motivations, I could also point out a reason that might not be so obvious as well. That particular verse still remains extremely offensive to some people now, and you can bet it was disliked for similar reasons back then.
So to answer your question, yes, the passage does have manuscript support, so this is not a question of a fabricated reading. Rather, it’s something that must needs be judged objectively on other evidence, both internal and external.
1) Which passage makes sense with or without the passage?
2) Which passage appears to be whole in the grammatical sense?
3) What is the record of the other translations (such as the Latin?)
4) Did the early fathers quote it as scripture?
This is not only about whether this particular passage has merit, but also a question of the integrity of the methods chosen by the whole Critical Text plan. Considering that this is one of the very few places that the TR departs from the majority readings, and that this passage is so oft attacked (and judged sans evidence) I think this is an important test case.
Has anyone ever mentioned the grammar problem (from removing 1 John 5:7) before? Imagine that you encountered a phrase like this:
We welcome the brethren, Anita, Maria, and Sophita…
vs.
We welcome the brethren, Jose, Charlie, Gomez, Anita, Maria, and Sophita.
If this was a Spanish phrase, one would refer to a large group that included at least one male in the masculine sense. The former phrase (above) would be so grammatically flawed to be insulting, but the second phrase would be correct.
The Greek presents a similar problem. The Critical Text omits 1 John 5:7 and refers to neuters in the masculine, but the Received Text includes the passage and thus suffers no grammatical difficulty. Here’s the aforementioned Gregory commenting on a text that lacked verse 7…
It seems to me that any Greek translator worth his salt ought to recognize the discrepancy and ask, “where’s the rest of the passage?” But we have the rest of the passage, even it it hasn’t always been popular.
It may have latin mad support but I am unaware of any greek mad with the phrase in rev 5.
Autocorrect mad should have been mad
Manuscripts
It’s a good thing our scribes didn’t have auto correct features back then! 🙂
Seriously though, I don’t know anything specific about Revelation 5 right now and don’t have the time to research at the moment. However, I have put many other sections through various tests, and after so many instances of successes (the accusations were faulty or even false) by default my faith tends to rest with what’s already proven. But if it’s important to you (and it seems that it may be I will try to look into the question later? Fair enough?
Jack Lewis says there is no greek text to support that phrase in rev 5:14. I am wondering if it came from the vulgate. There would be a big difference in saying the vulgate supports it and saying there are Greek manuscripts that support it.
I’d be glad to go through this later the best that I can, but it’s very hard (extremely difficult) to find manuscript evidence on the internet. It’s not put out there where it’s easy to see, if it’s even put out there at all.
But yes, if Erasmus included it in the TR then would have had manuscript support. Consider that even though he knew that 1 John 5:7 belonged in the text (from the grammar, the internal meaning, the quotes of the fathers, and the Latin translations) yet he refused to include it until he actually had a Greek text containing the passage. So it would be very unlikely that he would break that rule for a different passage.
I have the DeJonge article if you want to read it.
Good footwork. If you post the link I’ll try to read it later (and probably file it on my hard drive.)
By the way, I do see the Romans 5 passage was in a few earlier manuscripts so I retract that one. Will get to more as I am able.
Another useful list…you have probably already looked at this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_textual_variants_in_the_New_Testament
A similar list of textual variants and discrepancies between the MT and TR – https://www.dtl.org/alt/main/variants.htm
There will be differences between the Majority Text and the Received Text, because the Received Text does have some minority readings. However, the Critical Text favors minority readings far more than the TR.
So the question is not whether something is a majority or a minority reading, but whether the minority reading is justified. Both texts admit that a minority reading can be the correct one.
Refreshing the thread,
These are the reasons I am skeptical about Jack Lewis on this issue:
1) Erasmus refused to include 1 John 5:7 from Vulgate support. He insisted upon Greek source text.
2) The King James text marks words that were added without manuscript support (there can be legitimate reasons for this) … but “…him that liveth for ever and ever” is in normal font.
3) If such was the case, I really would expect someone else to have raised the question sooner.
4) I have also seen other people make false claims like “1 John 5:7 occurs in no Greek text” (which I do know how to disprove) so I know accusations like that are oft made too easily.
5) Adam Clarke (the bible commentator) declares that the phrase is spurious, and says that it is “wanting” in many versions, but he does not say that it occurs in no Greek manuscript.
6) John Gill (the bible commentator) counts the passage as genuine, but acknowledges that it is missing in certain manuscripts,
7) Jamison, Faucett, and Brown say that the phrase is entirely made up by translators, being “omitted by all manuscripts?”
8) I finally found a site which seems to address the question…
https://wilderness-cry.net/bible_study/courses/mssevidence/lesson10.html
Let’s see what it has…
That sounds like the evidence we need. So it would seem that Jack P. Lewis and the JFB commentary (and a couple other people I saw repeating that on the web) are … wrong.
Since we went through all that work to get here, let’s see what the rest of the lesson says after noting the conflict between Jack Lewis and James White?
So, summing up what I understand on this question,
1) Revelation is one of our books for which we have few good manuscripts to begin with
2) the reading “him that liveth for ever and ever” is supported by three manuscripts, 57, 137, and 141. By the way, that does not mean that there are 141 manuscripts that even have Revelation 5:14.
3) Besides being supported by the Latin text, it has additional support from a 6th century bishop who is citing the 2nd century old Latin,
And that would place the support for that portion of the verse before (older) than any extant manuscript or papyri fragment.
So it would be nice if those people out (and that commentary) there would stop saying false things like “him that liveth for ever and ever” appears in no Greek manuscript. I know of only one place where the TR text was patched by Beza without Greek mss support (“shalt be” rather than “holy one”) and that’s in Revelation 16:5. I was surprised by that at first, but after looking at it in some detail it made sense.
But if you really want to find a place that lacks Greek support, that would be the verse, not Revelation 16:5.
(whew… was that long enough?)
Andrew,
I am not seeing how the support you are rallying for this phrase really adds up to anything significant. You cited a bunch of guys who range from saying it was made up by translators to just one guy who says it is legitimate but from questionable mss. Then you point out a quote that says it is in three Greek mss of Revelation (57, 137, 141) but that those three mss are “suspect”. I can find all sorts of poor textual variants that have support of Greek manuscripts from the middle ages…if the criteria for a reading is that it shows up in 3 mss of suspect quality then we don’t have much to stand on when it comes to textual criticism. So the end of 5:14 does have support, just not any reasonable kind of reasonable support from actual Greek manuscripts.
What is more, according to this link the only Gk mss that has the line is mss 2045 (not the three mentioned)- https://bibletranslation.ws/trans/revwgrk.pdf Mss What is the story on 2045? It is a manuscript that contains portions of Revelation and is from the 13th century – https://carm.org/minuscules-1012-through-2768-9th-16th-century-copies. That isn’t good that it doesn’t show up in a Greek manuscript until the 13th century.
As for mss 57, 137, and 141 – I have looked all through the manuscript lists and can’t find any of these three represented as containing any portion of Revelation. See here under “Greek biblical manuscripts” – https://carm.org/bible So now I am wondering how good of a citation it is that those three even exist as mss of Revelation at all. So back to Jack Lewis’ statement…does that line have any Greek mss support? Looks like 1 mss from the 13th century. So I guess he was wrong but that doesn’t make your point that this phrase has any significant Gk mss support whatsoever.
Matt, I think you might be missing the obvious.
1) This was an example (and one that you picked) that demonstrates how accusations are made carelessly or irresponsibly without a seeming need to be truthful. If Jack Lewis had done any research, he would have known that his statement was faulty, so I am left to conclude that Jack Lewis lied. For whatever his reasons, it would seem that he thinks that “the ends justifies the means” when opposing the Received Text.
2) Jack Lewis (and quite a few others) employ this type of tactic frequently. False accusations are fired left and right without regard for accuracy. Attempting to clean up behind these rumors are time consuming, and once they have their first impression most people really don’t care anyway. Simply put, these charges are seldom honest, and evidence is routinely ignored or buried in favor of an anti-TR agenda.
3) Considering that James White is a hostile witness against the Received Text, and he acknowledges three specific Greek manuscripts by name, why are you discounting these manuscripts in favor of a single different manuscript name? White has no reason to invent imaginary manuscripts.
4) Any biblical translator recognizes that the authenticity of a reading is not always determined by a majority status… there are other legitimate factors. Furthermore, it would be particularly ironic for a proponent of the Critical Text (NIV, NASB, etc) to dispute a passage merely on the basis of it being a minority reading. The Critical Text relishes minority readings.
5) In this specific case of Revelation 5:14, it is a minority reading with Greek support, and when considering additional factors, the rest of its support goes back to the 6th century and even traces back to a recognized work from the 2nd century, giving it far greater antiquity than the majority reading.
6) It would be an unrealistic expectation to be able to insist to see the previously named individual manuscripts, or to have access to the rest of the body of manuscripts that have yet to be examined. If this is your standard, then you will be unable to accept anything, of any book from any bible.
7) If David Robert Palmer is saying that the passage only has Greek support in a single Greek manuscript, you should report this to him as an error as he requests on his title page:
8) Again, please remember that this was never about whether the phrase was a majority reading, but rather as to whether it was the authentic and accurate reading, as supported when considering the whole body of evidence, rather simply accepting false (disproved) statements at face value.
Andrew,
I know Jack Lewis personally and he is not the type to take these things lightly. So you need to be very, very careful when you call him a liar. He is the most studious person I have ever met. You are saying he did this intentionally. How do you know that? If I get a chance I will ask him what happened there and let him speak for himself. You said yourself, “It would be an unrealistic expectation to be able to insist to see the previously named individual manuscripts, or to have access to the rest of the body of manuscripts that have yet to be examined. If this is your standard, then you will be unable to accept anything, of any book from any bible.”
Are you willing to extend that same grace to Dr. Lewis? You are the one who brought up three Greek texts. My next question then is “well, what are these texts..when were they copied, etc?” Those are fair questions to ask of the evidence for that phrase, don’t you think. If you are going to bring up manuscript support you have to be open to examine the evidence of the validity of the mss themselves. You are doing that yourself based on your own rejection of the minority reading in this and in other instances.
Second, we are trying to prove the same thing – what is the most accurate reading here. You are saying that 13th century manuscripts are enough. I am saying they are not if 99% of earlier evidence does not support the reading. I think that sums this whole thing up pretty well.
If you know Jack Lewis personally, then it would be good if you could bring him to speak here for himself. When Jack set himself forward as an authority, he he is judged at a different standard than your everyday reader who may not know better than to believe the first thing they read.
But even a casual reader of a commentary can tell that the verse is not without Greek support. If you are talking about making accusations without hearing someone first, then are you also applying this to Jack Lewis? It doesn’t seem that you are being consistent. Why is Jack held guiltless for making a blanket accusation of “has no Greek manuscript support” without any further explanation?
I cannot recall saying anything as to that claim one way or another. I have no reason to accept your claim of “one single manuscript support from the 13th century.” So, no, that is not something that I said.
If this whole thing must be summed up pretty well, I think it is this: when a witness steps forwards with accusations that are proven false, and even that they were made in spite of obvious evidence, the further claims of that witness bear less credibility, and should not be accepted at a higher value than the witness that has been consistently proven.
Was this not my earlier prediction? That such claims would most likely be among those that were made with improper research or in spite of obvious facts to the contrary? I didn’t pick the test case here… someone else did. This was not a rigged contest.
So, please, regardless of any personal bias that we might inherit for one reason or another, I ask that we make sure to take extra care to remain objective.
Objective? I am not the one calling people liars. I am also more than willing to say where I am wrong or have missed it. You still contend Jack Lewis intentionally lied about Rev 5:14? Did he also lie when he said no known Greek mss are known to exist that have “book of life” (Tr & 1611 KJV) instead of “tree of life” in Rev 22:19? He lists several more instances like these. Would you be objective to admit any instances where he got it right?
What is more, you quote a guy who says there are 3 mss that support TR and the KJV, I go find the manuscript list and none of those show up as even having any Revelation content in them and you don’t bat an eye. How is that? How about your source? Is he beyond reproach or do you believe the passage has Greek manuscript support because a guy on a website says so? Objectivity would be good.
If Jack Lewis did not intentionally lie about the manuscript support for Revelation 5:14, then it seems to me that he must have purposely spoken while intentionally avoiding even casual research. If you really do know him personally, then please bring him here so he can speak for himself. The manuscript support is not new information, nor particularly hidden among scholarly circles, so I would like to hear his explanation.
Is it not written, “Be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation?”
Because, in the meantime, it seems that a lot of people are trusting Jack Lewis at his word as if he were an authority on the subject, because that rumor has been spread about the internet. Even if Jack Lewis was willing to admit his mistake, how would he go about undoing the damage? As we have seen, even if you put a footnote in your book, people will still overlook it and the false story continues to spread.
When someone places themselves in the position of teacher, they can do greater damage, and they must need be held to a higher standard. That’s not simply my opinion, that’s also scriptural.
Those charts that you mentioned also failed to recognize the manuscripts acknowledged by James White in support of Revelation 5:14, did they not? James White is a well recognized author. Maybe there’s something wrong with those charts instead.
This may seem to be off topic, but I would like to make a request, and I think (with reflection) it will illustrate a point I am trying to get across here.. Go download a copy of “Zeitgeist” and watch their section concerning the Christian religion. You will see one side of a story. Then, afterwards, download a copy of “Zeittgeist Refuted” as a comparison.
This would require about 3-4 hours of your time, but I think it would be well worth it for many reasons, besides the specific reason I have for this request. The reason I thought of this was to demonstrate how effective misinformation can be unless and until it is actually addressed, but it might be useful to you in other ways as well. That is, the “Zeitgeist” message is being pushed onto the youth, and we should not be ignorant of our enemy’s devices.
If you need links to find those I can provide them.
Since you asked… yes, it would seem that Jack Lewis was being just as untruthful concerning his statements about Revelation 22:19.
From the same source that gave the specific manuscripts supporting Revelation 5:14,
If Jack Lewis ever says something that is correct, then I will acknowledge it. Until then, at best his arguments on this subject seem to amount to little more than misinformed bias. At worst, considering that he is making absolute statements that he expects others to accept at face value, they could constitute willful deception.
But once the rumor is spread, the prejudice is formed, and the damage is done, and few people seem to care about whether the information they judged upon was accurate to begin with.
You cited that website before about manuscripts 57 and 141 and according to the charts at the link I provided there is no such mss that has Revelation in it unless I am missing it.
In D. A. Carson’s book “The King James Version Debate” he says some things that support Dr. Lewis. He says that Erasmus’ first Greek edition was done “precipitately” resulting in hundreds of printing errors. He used a handful of texts (none of which had an entire New Testament) and none of which were earlier than the 12th century (p.34). For Revelation he had only 1 Greek manuscript and it was missing the final page (6 verses that he backwards translated into Greek from Latin). “Several words and phrases may be found there that are attested in no Greek manuscript whatsoever.” (p.34). Carson says that at other times Erasmus introduced things based solely on the Vulgate (Acts 9:6 – “And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me do?” (KJV) are not found in any Greek manuscript (p.34).
Carson recounts the story of 1 John 5:7-8 and how it does in fact have manuscript support (miniscule 61 – fabricated?), miniscule 88 (12th century with the extra phrase scribbled in the margins in the 17th century), a 16th century copy of the Complutensian Polyglot and one other mss dated somewhere between 14-17th century. Carson believes that the phrase originated with Priscillian in the 4th century and later “became an established gloss in the Old Latin Bible in the fifth century.” and says it “appears in no copy of the Latin Vulgate before about A.D. 800. So there you go…yes there are manuscripts to “support” the phrase but not ones superior to other manuscript witnesses that are earlier and more numerous that leave the phrase out.
He notes that Erasmus revised his Greek edition later using more manuscripts (now up to about 6) and older ones (now dating back only to the 10th century. He says, “The TR is not the ‘received text’ in the sense that it has been received from God as over against other Greek manuscripts. Rather, ti is the ‘received text’ in the sense that it was the standard one at the time of the Elzevirs. Nevertheless the textual basis of the TR is a small number of haphazardly collected and relatively late minuscule manuscripts. In about a dozen places its reading is attested to by no known Greek manuscript witness.” (p.36)
Last he notes that the TR is based on less than 1% of manuscript witnesses that we have at our disposal.
I think you are getting ahead of yourself. I cannot compete with spam, and I think I have already demonstrated that these types of accusations are seldom backed by actual evidence, with test cases that you chose yourself (Revelation 5:14 and Revelation 22:19). If you want to look at something, let’s resolve one before going on to the next.
For example, I have already offered to talk about the oft-despised 1 John 5:7. It seemed like you were avoiding that, but now it has cropped back up in the middle of a bunch of other stuff. So let’s resolve this fully before anything else.
Carson is plainly misinformed. How could 1 John 5:7 have appeared in no copy of the Latin Vulgate before AD 800, when Jerome specifically complained that some of his scribes had sometimes been omitting this very passage while they were creating copies of this Latin Vulgate? His claim is illogical on its face.
By the way… I asked a question a while back that I was hoping you would answer. Is this the first time that you noticed (or had someone point out) that the Critical Text (majority) reading of 1 John is plainly deficient in the Greek grammar? Did Carson mention this at all? Can you recall any of these “against the King James” authors even bringing this up once, or attempting to offer a plausible explanation?
I’m sensing a lot of bias, or even hostility, but not so much objectivity. What is really so at stake that people are willing to conceal information and hide relevant issues on subjects like this? If someone has a legitimate concern, their argument shouldn’t be started with false information.
When considering these types of questions, one needs to retain a healthy dose of skepticism in both directions… to remain fair and objective. If there’s one thing I’ve learned, you cannot necessarily trust someone to be fair even if they’ve published a book, or had respect for them for some other reason.
I didn’t ignore you on 1 John. I said above, “If you want to talk more about 1 John 5:7 that is fine. To me, if the story has no validity then that is fine.” The grammatical argument doesn’t hold any weight. In fact, it can speak against your point because often textual variants arise for the very reason of trying to smooth out things like that.
All I am after here is the truth. What makes me feel agitated is not an opposing point of view. I welcome that and love dialoging on those types of things all the time. What gets to me is when you run the names of other people, respected people through the mud. Dr. Lewis is THE most studious person I have ever met. He has a PhD in NT from Harvard and one in OT from Hebrew Union. He served on the NIV translation committee as well and has published many books and taught theology, Hebrew, Greek, etc for decades. He knows this type of thing better than most. He is very respected and has no need to just make things up or lie about it. That is not in his best interest. So I am curious what his take on this is. That doesn’t mean he can’t make a mistake I just approach with caution before I start making accusations against a man like that because he is someone I hold in high regard. D.A. Carson as well. But he is wrong too.
I will give you a fuller response on your questions regarding 1 John 5 tomorrow.
I’m not asking for an adversarial response about 1 John 5:7, but would prefer a discussion and open analysis. This is not a battle (or at least, it shouldn’t be.)
I have difficulty with the “grammatical argument holds no weight” argument, because we generally credit our scriptures with being inspired by the Holy Spirit, by God himself. The rest of our bible is written with correct grammar, and grammar is a fundamental part of the language that serves as like a computer data checksum, ensuring that we didn’t misunderstand or accidentally miss a piece. One ignores faulty checksums at their own peril.
I think it might also help if we consider the actual content of the passage in both of its proposed forms. That is, the passage doesn’t make sense without the full text, and the latter verses would be making reference to things that were non-existent. Why would verse 9 be comparing the witness of men and the witness of God, if it never mentioned the witness of God to begin with?
So, both context and grammar point to an omission within the majority text.It becomes more difficult to argue in favor of the verse being originally written, by the Holy Spirit, in a sense that is nonsense both contextually and grammatically. How plausible is that that God had one massive hiccup in the middle of John’s epistle?
If it matters to you, at one time I believed that the passage was spurious, “added by Catholic monks in the middle ages to insert support for the Trinity.” Please understand that I am not making an argument for reasons of tradition or doctrine.
By the way, here are two other resources you might find helpful in your studies:
https://www.csntm.org/manuscript
https://www.tlg.uci.edu/
At the manuscript site (the first link) did you notice that most of the images are only samples… by agreement they are only posting part of them? Also, the ones at the top of the chart are not yet cataloged. I mention this because I think it might help explain what I said earlier, that we will still be opening and reading manuscripts until Kingdom Come.
I’d like to mention one thing based upon an earlier comment you made above:
That’s actually a very deceptive statement (not your fault) which I will explain here. Imagine that I had a huge workshop, with a bench that held many different wrenches. I need to work on my car which is parked 300 feet away, so I get a bucket, and reach inside and take out less than 1% of the wrenches. Is this realistic?
Yes, it is… .because with that “less than 1%” I have taken samples of all the relevant families of wrenches: one of each size from both standard and metric. I can have a proper representation of the pieces even if I only select a small sample set for my bucket.
That’s why the “less than 1%” claim is deceptive, and if it was being stated fairly, they would also mention that there was a similar very tiny percent of all manuscripts for every extant translation upon this earth. You really don’t need 500 wrenches to go work on your car, do you? When you have lots of duplicates, you take one of each.
Did you know that Noah only took less than 1% of all animals onto the ark? That would be a misleading statement, but it’s true, isn’t it?
So you are saying that Erasmus’ 10th and 12th century manuscripts were representative of all reliable manuscript family types? If so, how what do you base that assertion on unless you have actually examined the mss he used and understand how representative they are? Remember, Erasmus didn’t even have one whole mss of the NT at his disposal. He had all the bits and pieces to put it together and did as good of a job as can be done with that. Does that mean everything in there was representative of all the families of texts? Do you really know the half a dozen mss he used well enough to make a claim like that? Or is that the type of thing that is said on a blog like this and then many people just repeat that misinformation over and over again? That is how misinformation gets spread. Feel free to back up that assertion. The problem is, you can’t without tracking down the mss he used, reading them in Greek and doing a comparative study with various families of texts. Are you still going to hold to that analogy?
Now, in principle I agree wholeheartedly (as does Jack Lewis by the way) with this principle – ” You really don’t need 500 wrenches to go work on your car, do you?” Of course not…that is really what all boils down to. We have many excellent translations available to us today that all convey the truth God wants us to understand. We can disagree about all sorts of things but at the end of the day it is remarkable how well God’s word has been preserved. In fact, the more texts we find the more accurate we find his word to be and the majority of these variants, even ones we have discussed, mean very little if they are present or absent. No major doctrine hangs on any of these variants. So that is refreshing!
Last, I want to say…thank you for your zeal and thank you for the time you put into looking at these things. That is refreshing as well. We won’t agree on everypoint but I sure respect the time you put into it all. We all have to back up what we are saying whether it comes from Jack Lewis or a google search result. Some things we won’t ever be able to back up personally. For instance, am I going to be able to gain access to and read every single Greek mss of a particular verse to find all the variants and whether or not they exist? Certainly not. So we also have to have grace toward one another in these things and do the best we can do with what we have.
You might be overlooking that Erasmus did quite a bit of traveling, visiting various libraries, so he would be able to recognize what “wrenches” he needed to comprise a representative sample. He was certainly aware of the Vatican-style readings, but he chose against them.
Erasmus didn’t have a complete manuscript of the NT at his disposal but he traveled a lot so no problem and probably saw some other manuscripts somewhere along the way other than the ones he actually sat down and used. How does that make sense? I am not sure what to even make of that rationale.
And I’m not sure what to make of a rationale that continues to accept claims at face value from the same folk that have already been proven to be leveling irresponsible charges. The “no whole New Testament” thing sounds fishy to me, but I don’t have time to keep up with all the spam.
You do keep avoiding basic questions though.. like, did you even attempt to read Matthew Henry and John Gil? You could learn some interesting items there, and it would demonstrate an attempt to be objective, other than simply parroting those that favor a predetermined side.
For example… remember how you were saying that there were only eight extant copies that contained the passage of 1 John 5:7? If you had read John Gill…
Apparently, even as far back as a few hundred years ago, they were a lot more extant Greek manuscripts available with the passage than there are now. Robert Stephens had sixteen ancient copies, and nine of these had it. Just considering Stephens, nine is a majority out of his sixteen, and nine exceeds the former eight that detractors recognize today.
The math is fairly simple… there may not be many today, but there used to be far more. Did Daniel Wallace mention this in his popular tract? No, he didn’t.
So please, if you want to put forth questions, please treat others as you want to be treated, and have the courtesy to answer the ones that are already asked of you. If you want someone to read this essay and that tract, please be willing to read a couple relevant commentary entries yourself, when it is suggested. That would only be fair, right? And also an extension of that famous golden rule?
… and I didn’t mean that as harshly as it sounded when I read it back to myself again. I apologize if that sounded mean.
You really don’t have to apologize. I always try to assume the best of people. Sometimes I don’t do as well at that as I would like but it is what I try to do. I just want to point out that you are right that I haven’t addressed all your questions (there are many) and yes I have read the things you have suggested (and many more). I just haven’t gotten around to putting all the pieces together yet. It takes time. So please don’t assume that just because I haven’t responded that it means I haven’t taken the time to do some homework myself.
Here is a cite that tells what Greek support there is for 1 John 5:7-8 – https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8
The article is by Daniel Wallace who is a very highly regarded NT scholar. He says the longer reading is found in only 8 late manuscripts (which he lists) four of which have it written in the margin. By late we are talking everything is after 1215 AD. That doesn’t make for a very good witness for the long reading. I won’t repeat everything he says because he lays it out really well. This is in no way an original reading from the pen of John. So do Greek manuscripts exist? Yes. Do they carry any weight? No.
I am familiar with the Daniel Wallace piece. Been there, crushed it to ribbons in writing via a private stamped letter to my friend seven years ago. In my defense, I was not aware that he was a “highly regarded NT scholar” back then, I mistook it for a badly written (and poorly supported) short essay written by an undergraduate student from Dallas Theological Seminary.
I have some questions that I hope you will answer:
1) Did you stop to read the John Gill commentary at 1 John 5:7?
2) Did you stop to read the Matthew Henry commentary at 1 John 5:7?
(if not…. does it seem like you are attempting to gather the evidence with objectivity?)
3) Does Daniel Wallace offer any evidence to support his imputed motives against the character of Erasmus?
4) Are you under the impression that Daniel Wallace is attempting to offer a fair and/or unbiased presentation of the external evidence concerning 1 John 5:7?
5) When was the first time anyone asked you to explain the grammatical or contextual difficulties that arise if one were to follow the Critical Text that omits 1 John 5:7?
6) Have these internal problems been addressed by Daniel Wallace in this (or another) paper?
Let’s briefly take a look at one of these golden statements from Mr. Wallace here…
There’s multiple problems with his theory, the first of which is that historically the passage was often an embarrassment to the Trinity position (when not dealing with Arians.) For example,
If this was a fourth century Latin homily to refer to members of the Trinity, then why does Tertullian debate the meaning of “these three are one” (rather than disputing the validity of the phrase) with Praxaes as early as 213 AD?
And if this was merely a fourth century Latin homily to refer to members of the Trinity, then why did Priscillian (who was not Trinitarian) quote the passage and attribute it to the apostle John?
And if the passage was not recognized as scripture back in those days, then why did the African bishops put this passage forward as their primary defense in 415 AD? Considering that they were to be banished for their statement, wouldn’t it seem strange if they unified behind a phantom verse? Why would they say that “the evangelist John” said “there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one?” Had this “Latin homily” spread that far in such a short time?
All of this is a little hard on his theory that the verse is a “Trinitiarian gloss” that arose in a fourth century Latin homily. First, it is being argued earlier than the fourth century; second, it’s absence leaves a gap in the Greek text, not the Latin; and third, the passage was actually inconvenient for the Trinitarian position, rather than a comprising a helpful homily.
Wallace’s conclusion seems to cut both ways…
Hmm….
1) His claim that Erasmus compromised his principles to promise his future book sales does not constitute ad hominem argumentation? And that entire last paragraph constitutes ad hominem argumentation…
2) We aren’t seeing a ton of knee jerk reaction against anything associated with the King James text here?
3) And let’s not get started on whom is excluding reason and empirical evidence.
All that matters is that Daniel Wallace has written a short (thus easily read) paper with misleading statements that neatly sidesteps the body of evidence and attempts to label his opponents as simply furthering tradition and emotional baggage. So the knee jerk crowd that thinks of themselves as “anti-traditionalist” and/or “enlightened” loves it without further thought.
Would you like to guess how many times I’ve seen people regurgitate this specific short essay as if it were gospel? But it seems that it doesn’t matter whether a paper is honest, rational, or reasonable, as long as it sides with a popular view. I have written against this essay before, but maybe it’s time to do so in a more public manner.
If by any chance Daniel Wallace is one of your good friends, could you please bring him forward so we can discuss his piece out in the open where others can see both questions and answers? Please understand my frustration with this grand game of keep-away.
Andrew,
I just posted a list of text study tools and lists that might be helpful to you. Feel free to comment with anything you have found helpful – https://mattdabbs.wordpress.com/2012/09/11/greek-and-hebrew-textual-study-tools-big-list/
I also wanted to say that while I haven’t found copies of the actual manuscripts, I have found 57 and 141 listed and they do contain Revelation but aren’t very old (12th century or so if my memory is right). You can find them listed in one of the wikipedia text lists. I will talk about that more when I get some more of my thoughts together on all of this. Working on it 🙂 Thanks for your patience.
It is okay with me if we take a break for a few days. I just accepted a job offer today and will be moving again (several hundred kilometers) as soon as I find housing, and this is in the context that I recently crossed national borders a couple months ago. Metaphorically speaking, there’s too many ping-pong balls on the table right now to hit them all.
Here is the pdf – https://www.thescripturealone.com/De%20Jonge%20-%20Erasmus%20and%20the%20Comma%20Johanneum.pdf
1) Did you stop to read the John Gill commentary at 1 John 5:7?
I’m quite familiar with Gill’s claims. I’m equally familiar with the fact that – quite simply – they’re in error. For example, his so-called “ancient” copies of Stephanus do not pre-date the tenth century. Furthemore – since you are the one claiming these phantom MSS for your position – what are their names and where are they now?
Replying to Wes,
You seem to have missed the point. John Gill was aware of nine manuscripts in one person’s collection (out of sixteen) alone, and he started naming others as well. This was in comparing another Jack Lewis who claimed with authority that the passage had ZERO Greek manuscript support.
The first point was that even a basic research of a few commentaries would show that the passage (1 John 5:7) did have manuscript support.
The second point was that the 1 John 5:7 passage seems to have had better extant support in the Greek back in John Gill’s day than it does today. It is an error in thinking to confuse “extant” with “all that existed in space-time.”
Whether I know the names of these manuscripts or what happened to them (they could have been destroyed by fire for all I know) is irrelevant, but apparently there were plenty enough examples in John Gill’s realm that he could simply say “many” and start listing instances.
Now… if you would like to add something productive, please explain why you believe John Gill to be in error as to his reference to Greek manuscript authority per 1 John 5:7.
2) Did you stop to read the Matthew Henrwey commentary at 1 John 5:7?
Yes. I’m also aware that Henry himself didn’t actually write it as he died when he was in the book of Acts.
However – I don’t consider throwing out the name of a scholar who says something to be much of an argument at all. After all – if you’re going to throw out the names of scholars and demand interaction as if those scholars spoke infallibily then do you not also have to deal with the vast majority of scholars who REJECT the comma?
Replying to Wes,
Whether Matthew Henry wrote the Matthew Henry commentary is irrelevant. The question was not whether the name was recognized, but rather if the section had been read when Matt (the blog author) was gathering information… because it seemed that the data was missing from the picture being painted.
If you’re thinking that “names of scholars” matter here, you’re missing missed the boat entirely. Quality of information matters, not quantity of people trying to cast their vote.
5) When was the first time anyone asked you to explain the grammatical or contextual difficulties that arise if one were to follow the Critical Text that omits 1 John 5:7?
There are none. Before I address this, however, please inform me of the amount of Greek you’ve studied firsthand.
6) Have these internal problems been addressed by Daniel Wallace in this (or another) paper?
Although not specifically referencing 1 John 5:7, Wallace discussed the issued of gender in his paper “Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit.”
https://www.ibr-bbr.org/files/bbr/BBR_2003a_05_Wallace_HolySpirit.pdf
I will now await to see your response before continuing.
Replying to Wes,
There are no grammatical difficulties? That seems rather strange seeing that the folk that spoke Greek in those days recognized the problem back then. I may not be fluent in Greek, but I did take the time to study the passage until I could identify the difference, and whereas I may not be an expert in Greek myself, it seems that Gregory of Nazanius was.
I will interpret your answer (6) that you have never seen Daniel Wallace address the grammatical difficulty behind the Critical Text of (the absent) 1 John 5:7. It’s “swept under the rug” so to speak, and none should be the wiser.
However, before you start lighting off on a tangential direction on some questions that were not aimed at you in the first place, would you mind introducing yourself? If you would start by sharing where you’re starting from (what you accept as givens) I might be able to have some constructive questions for you.
Great post. I noticed that the reply string has been going since 2007! Reading through them made me think of something that has been on my mind. I hope it is relevant to this discussion. It is different but related.
I bought into textual criticism a long time ago. It seemed so reasonable. It seemed like the educated thing to do. It seemed smart. When I pick up a Bible to read, I want it to be based on the best available evidence we have today . . . on the best manuscripts . . . on the most reliable sources . . . on the oldest texts . . . using the best Greek texts for the New Testament scriptures and the best Hebrew texts for the Old Testament scriptures. That way, I will have a Bible that is as close to what God intended for me to have can be. Right? Doesn’t that sound like a good and worthy goal? It has always seemed so.
Until recently, that is. Now, I’m not so sure. You see . . . I found Orthodoxy. Or Orthodoxy found me. And it has turned my world upside down.
I learned that the Orthodox do not use the Hebrew text as the basis for the Old Testament scriptures. They use the Septuagint, (I know you probably already know this) which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew text that was begun in the late 3rd Century BCE. After the translation was completed, the use of the Septuagint spread like wildfire throughout the Greek-speaking Jewish world . . . and also became the primary version of what the church called the Old Testament for hundreds of years. It was so commonly used at the time of Christ and the Apostles . . . that virtually all of their references to “scripture” in the New Testament writings come from this Greek translation . . . and some of the parables, stories and other wisdom teachings that both Christ and His Apostles reference are from the Septuagint.
The Septuagint was “the Bible,” so to speak, for the Greek speaking Jewish people in the first century . . . and also for the Apostolic Church. As the Church aged, the Septuagint served as the Old Testament for hundreds of years. This same Septuagint has been the text supporting the translations used by the Orthodox right up to the present day. In other words, when studying the Old Testament scriptures, the Orthodox use translations that are based on the text the Early Church used, unless they are worship where Greek is the liturgical language, in which case they continue to use the Septuagint itself . . . THE SAME ONE JESUS USED.
To the Orthodox, Textual Criticism is seen as a lack of faith . . . a reliance on ourselves to get it right. Instead, Christians should rely on the Holy Spirit to guide the Church as the Pillar and Ground of Truth. . . along with the scriptures as used by the Early Church. In plain language, if the Septuagint was “good enough” for Jesus, the Apostles, and the Church Fathers to study and quote from . . . then it is “good enough” for the Church to place its confidence in. And not only is it “good enough” . . . it is exactly what we need. And regardless of any claims that there may be error in the Septuagint, the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church. This is the Orthodox view in a nutshell.
But we in churches of Christ (and Protestants in general), throughout our history up to the present, have been and continue to be tied to the work and deeds of the Reformers . . . who chose to reject the Septuagint for the Masoretic Text. The Orthodox believe the Masoretic Text was the result of an effort by the Jews to rid as many references/prophesy to Jesus and his teachings as they could. You have to wonder how Jewish scholars who lived long after the destruction of Jerusalem would know more about what should be included in the Jewish cannon than those who participated in the translation of the Hebrew text into Greek and who participated in the spiritual life of the Jewish people right on up to the time of the destruction.
Have you ever given this some thought? I may not be articulating all of this correctly, but hopefully you get the gist.
A while ago I was handed some questions that were being put forth by a Muslim skeptic, alleging “clear contradictions” in the bible. Some of these were easy to answer, but a few required a little more research than a simple knee-jerk response.
One of the things I noticed (in the course of these questions and answers) was that the Greek Septuagint was somewhat revisionist. That is, if there was a place where the Hebrew Old Testament seemed to conflict with the New Testament, they were willing to change the Old Testament to make it match.
For example, where the Old Testament speaks of Jacob and his seventy going down to Egypt, in two places the LXX reads “seventy-five” (presumably, in an effort to match Stephen’s mention to seventy-five souls of Joseph and all his kindred… ) … but they missed the other place where the Old Testament said “seventy.”
A further examination of that particular example indicated that rather than a popular expalanation of “Stephen was quoting the Septuagint” that rather the Septuagint had been edited after the fact (in only 2 of 3 places) in an attempt to make it sound more like Stephen, rather than reading Stephen carefully to see what he might have meant (if he is read literally there is no conflict between his seventy-five and the Hebrew count of seventy.)
I know that some of the early fathers did favor the Septuagint. For example, Justin Martyr believed that the Greek translation was inspired, and that the Jews avoided it because it contained more Messianic prophecies. I like Justin, but I would respectfully disagree with him here, and I have yet to see any deciding evidence that Jesus or the apostles used the Septuagint, or that it even existed in the same form that we have today. That is, maybe the early church had a Greek translation that didn’t attempt to correct the Hebrew (as in the case of removing the seventy in favor of seventy-five.)
Someone that is guided by God’s spirit may not be immune from error, but I would also think that someone who is guided by God’s spirit would want to strive to be free from error. The Hebrew scriptures are accurate, and Paul says that the Jew held a significant advantage as they kept the “oracles of God.”
As for the Masoretic text, I have not encountered evidence that would indicate signs of tampering, and it stands up under testing, even against all sorts of the skeptic’s charges of “clear contradiction.” I am inclined to believe that if God has provided us with scripture, he would want us to have it in its purest meaning… not that we must necessarily learn original languages, but that it would make sense, without contradiction, and not suffering from an editor’s pen (or his penknife.)
Andrew,
I wanted to follow up on a few things here. The first is the Jack Lewis comment about no Greek manuscripts with the Comma. I haven’t been able to speak with Dr. Lewis (he is in his 80s and lives 800 miles from here). I have asked a few people who do spend time with him the question but haven’t heard back yet. I have looked at what Greek manuscript evidence there is and the Comma doesn’t exist in anything prior to 1400AD in Greek. In light of that, Dr. Lewis has plenty of ground to stand on to basically say it is non-existent in Greek. I want to summarize two different takes.
Some will say the church fathers quoted it and so that is our Greek evidence going back even to the 3rd century. Dr. Gill says Athanaseus, Cyprian and Tertullian quoted the Comma. I can’t find evidence of that. It seems they made trinitarian interpretations of the text but didn’t actually quote what we have as the Comma itself.
One valuable resource on this is Raymond Brown’s Anchor Bible commentary on the Epistles of John. He has a whole appendix on the Comma. I will summarize his evidence against the comma here,
First, he says the vocabulary is not typical of John’s epistles. John doesn’t use “Holy Spirit” or the “Word” personified anywhere else in his letters, although he does in his Gospel. Second is the grammar…The point some make in regard to this verse is that without the comma the grammar is awkward. Advocates of the Comma say it is original because it reads better. Brown believes that the grammar doesn’t make things clearer, it makes things more complicated. It has the Spirit being both a heavenly and earthly witness. How is the Spirit a heavenly witness? That isn’t found anywhere else in John’s writings. Third is the textual and church father’s evidence. Brown has three areas of textual evidence that he covers in detail: pre 1500 AD, Important discussions since 1500 and The Origins of the Comma.
Pre 1500 AD textual evidence:
Non-Latin evidence (Greek)
There are 8 Greek manuscripts with the Comma. None of those 8 date before 1400 AD (this is why Jack Lewis said there are no Greek mss with the comma because they don’t appear until after 1400AD! Of those 8 manuscripts,
• 4 have the comma in the text and 4 have the comma written in the margin (marginal/variant reading). Here are the MSS…
• The four where the Comma is in the text
o 61 – Codex Montfortianus (Britannicus) from the 16th century
o 629 – Codex Ottobonianus in the Vatican from the 14th or 15th century that has a Latin parallel written with it.
o 918 – Escorial (Spain) from the 16th century
o 2318 – Bucharest *Rumania) from the 18th century influenced by the Vulgate
• The four where it is a marginal reading
o 88vl – a 16th century marginal addition to a 12th century Codex Regius in Naples
o 221vl – a marginal reading added later to a 10th century MSS in the Bodleian Library at Oxford
o 429vl – a variant later added to a 16th century MS at Wolfenbuttel
o 636vl – a variant reading added to a 15th century MS at Naples
Greek Church fathers
Brown says the Comma isn’t *directly* quoted by any Greek author of the first 1000 of Christian history (p.777). This verse is quoted by early Greek authors and none of their quotations have the Comma ( eg Cyril of Alexandria quotes the passage in Greek on three occasions and none of those quotations have it). That is significant.
The first time it appears in Greek is in 1215 where the Latin “Acts of the IV Lateran Council” was translated into Greek and again around 1400 when Manuel Kaleka (backwards) translated the Comma into Greek from the Vulgate.
Non-Greek sources
Gill was correct that it doesn’t exist in any of the Syriac, Arabic, Ethiopic or Old Latin texts prior to 1500. What he didn’t add is that it also doesn’t exist in any Coptic, Armenian or Slavonic translations of the NT in that time frame either. How would it not appear in the original language (Greek) or any translation but Latin if it was original?
• It is missing in the Pishitta
• Only later came into Syriac manuscripts back translated from Latin Vulgate
• No early Syriac church writers reference it
Latin – there are two great traditions of the Latin text, the Old Latin and Jerome’s Vulgate
• It wasn’t in early versions of either
• It showed up in the Old Latin after 600 and in the Vulgate after 750 (p.779)
• The manuscripts where it begins appearing are all isolated to Spain
o Palimpset of Leon Cathedral – OL-Vg/7th century
o Fragment of Freising – OL-Vg/7th century
o Codex Cavensis – Vg/9th century
o Codex Complutensis – Vg/10th
o Codex Toletanus – Vg/10th
o Codex Theodulphianus – Vg/8th
o Some Sngallense MSS – Vg 8th century
Going earlier in Spanish manuscripts Brown says it is unclear if it was in St. Peregrinus Vulgate in Spain in the 5th century. It was later found as a marginal reading and came into the text around the time of Isidore of Seville (7th century). Brown surveyed 258 MSS in the National Library of Paris all prior to the 12th century and over half lacked the comma (p.779)
So it doesn’t show up directly quoted in Greek until 1215 and not in any Greek manuscript prior to 1400. It isn’t quoted by any Greek author until after 1000 AD. Even the Latin evidence is late and shaky. This doesn’t make a very good case for the authenticity of the verse. I wanted to lay all this out because we can talk in generalities but here is the actual manuscript evidence with dates.
Hello Matt,
I admire the way you are trying to research this, and I think this is a good starting spot. I will get back to this a little later, and I would like to address the points by point. For example, I can show you were Tertullian is referencing 1 John 5:7 (although I wouldn’t call it a precise quote… it’s Priscillian that has the solid quote attributed to John) … and some of that data is wrong and/or misleading (like the volume manuscript evidence.)
Be back with you later.
As you know, there would be a big difference between a church Father giving a Trinitarian interpretation of those verses and one directly quoting the Comma. Brown is saying that the examples we have from early fathers in Greek aren’t direct quotes.
Priscillian would be Latin, not Greek.
Okay, I have a moment now to review that follow-up.
1) Concerning Jack Lewis,
I sympathize that you would prefer to allow your friend to answer, but (in spite of your reasoning) Jack Lewis has absolutely no ground to “basically say … [that] it is non existent in Greek.” There is a huge difference between whether a passage is non-existent or a minority reading. If Jack Lewis wants to speak in absolutes, he needs to make sure his statements are absolutely correct.
2) Where are those quotations?
a) Cyprian is fairly easy to find… I used Google for “cyprian 1 John 5:7” and had the quote within moments:
Those are pretty clear quotes of John 10:30 and 1 John 5:7. Cyprian died in 258, so here you have a very early testimony as to the accepted authenticity of both passages in the 3rd century. The John 10:30 passage is attributed to the words of the Lord, and in the same breath he says “it is written” … and quotes 1 John 5:7 as one speaks with the authority of scripture.
b) Tertullian is an interesting example, because even though his reference is less direct, he is protesting his opponents non-Trinitarian interpretation of the words. This strongly implies that the text itself was beyond dispute, or else why would Tertullian need to dispute the wording?
You can find this quickly with a Google search of “Tertullian against Praxeas.” For this section I am quoting from the archive on the Catholic site at: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0317.htm (and the Latin quote from https://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=29489)
It’s not just this single location, but rather Tertullian keeps referencing “three are one” or “three in one” all throughout, and by his method of argument, it does not seem as if his opponent disputes the validity of “these three are one.” This isn’t a very good example of a quote, which is why John Gill (whom you noted earlier) calls it a “reference” rather than a “quote.”
c) Athanasius has a very plain quote that he attributes to John.
2d) Priscillian has a very clear quote of the passage.
Whether Priscillian was writing in Greek or Latin is irrelevant. If this was merely a recent addition that had only been introduced into a Latin copy, he could not have used it as an authority… all someone would have had to do was to say “that’s a spurious text” and his credibility would have been shot. When he quotes the passage, he is
Besides this, let’s consider the irony of discarding Priscillian’s quote because he was writing in Latin. What language do you write in? Just because you write in English does not mean that you can make up scripture whenever you feel like it, and if you quote a passage, it is because you feel confident that it will be recognized as genuine.
All of these have far greater weight than any single manuscript. A manuscript can be flawed, edited, damaged, or even rogue, and there is no guarantee of who wrote the script in question. An author stakes his reputation on the quote being genuine.
Such as the 350 prelates at Council of Carthage that stood up against the Arians (and thus suffered banishment) and chose 1 John 5:7 as their defense. If the verse was recognized as being spurious or a “Latin gloss” why would they choose that passage? When you know that you’re going to be taken for standing up for the right, you aren’t going to waste your last prepared words on something flimsy.
… but this is getting much longer than I anticipated, and I should use another post for readability. I want to step through your points.
… continuing
You were saying,
Cyprian was not using the passage in a Trinitarian sense, and I don’t think that Priscillian was Trinitarian. The Council of Carthage was Trinitarian, but Tertullian was arguing against Praxeas’s interpretation of “these three are one.”
4) Raymond Brown’s commentary,
a) I don’t understand his reasoning about the language not being “typical” … because he says the Holy Spirit is personified in his gospel but not elsewhere in his epistles? There’s not a lot of bulk there in the remaining epistles of II John and III John, and besides, why does he discount the gospel of John?
b) He massively understates the grammatical problem. It’s not simply a matter of it being “awkward” or “reading better” but a matter of being horribly flawed or grammatically correct.
c) You gave me an easy question 🙂
Of course the Spirit is a heavenly witness. See John 4:24, “God is a spirit” and John 1:32, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove.” God abides in (and arrives from) heaven, not the earth or the seas. The Father of spirits (Hebrews 12:9) is a spirit and if God cannot witness his own throne (per Matthew 5:34) than who can?
I fail to understand how this would somehow complicate things. Satan was cast down to earth and fell like lightning (Isaiah 14, Luke 10:18, Revelation 12:4) and as such might not be counted as a heavenly witness…
… but if Jesus could say that the Son of Man (himself) was in heaven while he spoke to Nicodemus (see John 3:13) then why would it be strange for God to be present as Spirit on earth and in heaven at the same time?
d) omissions from some Greek copies
1) Jack Lewis – Dr. Lewis says there are no Greek manuscripts with the verse. As has already been stated, there are 8 Greek manuscripts with the verse all dating after 1400. So technically he was wrong but the reality is, there are no good manuscripts with this verse. Can you imagine if a phrase didn’t show up in copies of the Declaration of Independence until the year 3176 but we still think (in spite of all the manuscripts of the Declaration with out the phrase from 1000 years earlier) that the phrase is original or that it has any real manuscript support? That is quite a leap.
2) You realize these “quotations” are not uniform and are in different languages. You don’t need the Comma to get “Father, Son and Spirit”. It is in Matt 28:19, Cyprian wrote in Latin, not Greek and it is not a direct quote of the Comma but could just as easily be quoting the Matthew passage with a trinitarian interpretation. It reads as his interpretation of the Father, Son and Spirit quote. It seems to me he is saying, not quoting from scripture that the three are one.
I will get to the others when I have more time.
“There are no good manuscripts with the verse?” It seems to me that the definition of “good manuscript” depends on what the author intends to prove. Ironically, do you know what the supposed “oldest and best” manuscripts (Aleph and Beta) look like? Even cross-outs and corrections are accepted for these.
2) When you and I speak, our quotations are not necessarily uniform either. We might interchange “Jesus” and “Christ” or “Son” and “Word” and no one is going to throw a fit. But if you look at the quote from Cyprian, it does not read like an “interpretation” but a quote:
a) He does not say “it is written Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” but rather that it is “written of” Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”
b) Then he says what is written of them, saying “These three are one.”
c) If the former phrase is recognized as a scriptural quote, why is the latter phrase contested?
Do you think that “I and the Father are one” is a just Trinitarian interpretation of his impression of Christ’s speech in the gospel, or because he says “The Lord says” do you recognize this as a quote of John 10:30? I want to make sure you’re being consistent.
Andrew,
Let me summarize a bit myself.
1 – The most important evidence we have are manuscripts, not church Fathers. This doesn’t show up in Greek until 1400.
2 – The second best thing we have are quotations from church Fathers based on the manuscript(s) they had at their disposal. There are numerous quotations of this verse in the early church fathers that does not have in the Comma, in Greek. You point out an example or two that are close and early (Cyprian) but still no direct quotation in Greek. Cyprian is Latin, Athanatasius is not a direct quote (he says they are “three in one” which is not what the Comma says at all).
3 – Now you are saying the Latin texts are not sufficient when you said this, “Whether Priscillian was writing in Greek or Latin is irrelevant. If this was merely a recent addition that had only been introduced into a Latin copy, he could not have used it as an authority… all someone would have had to do was to say “that’s a spurious text” and his credibility would have been shot. When he quotes the passage, he is”
These phrases come from somewhere. It is entirely possible someone like Cyprian or Priscillian say something like the Comma and then it ends up being an addition to the Latin text early on. You are assuming that if they say anything close to it they must have had the comma when it could be the other way around as well. Just something to think about.
Hello Matt (I am looking at your recent summary),
Re: Manuscripts vs. Church Fathers.
Manuscripts are very important. If a passage had no manuscript reading and only quotations from early Fathers, then that would simply be a “saying” and not scripture itself.
However, when a reading has support from church Fathers, a quote has a lot more weight than a simple manuscript. The reasons are thus: a manuscript could have been written by anybody (it is anonymous) but a church Father that quotes the scripture is testifying that this is what his scripture read.
In other words, it’s not only evidence, but it’s evidence that is submitted by a known witness, and one who was willing to place his reputation behind it in his day when he would have been subject to criticism. Thus, additional support from a church father is of far greater importance than support from simply another additional manuscript.
It may be that the oldest extant Greek reading of 1 John 5:7 may be from the 14th century, but it does not logically follow it appeared in the 14th century, correct? When people were quoting the passage as scripture (and attributing it to John) back in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, and when Jerome complained about his translators omitting the passage when they were translating the Vulgate from Greek into Latin in the 4th century, that attests to its antiquity, regardless of what determined the surviving scraps we have today.
Accuracy needed on these quotes, please
You wrote:
One of us must be misreading this…
Regardless of whether Athanasius says in other places, what does he say here that he attributes to John? Does he say “three in one” or “these three are one?” (Maybe you were thinking of Tertullian and said Athanasius by accident?)
Possibility of rogue addition
For refreshing your thought,
Seriously considering this angle,
Cyprian specifically attributed the 1 John 5:7 text to “being written” which means it was already accepted as scripture on par with the gospel of John where Jesus says “I and my Father are one.” So, it is very unlikely that Cyprian started a trendy saying that got written in later.
As for whether this could have been an addition to the Latin text (I am aware that this is one of the stories that is circulated) this seems improbable… considering that the passage completes the Greek text (and not the Latin)… if one was inclined to consider that the passage was an addition, why would it have been added to the Latin first and not the Greek? The Latin text works (grammatically) with or without 1 John 5:7.
So it seems to me that a decent conspiracy theory should start with the Greek text, and then explain how those Greek texts became the accepted text to be adopted by the Church and to become the accepted reading in the Latin. I could probably think of a story myself, but the problem would be finding any evidence to support that theory (the same problem shared by the “Lucian Recension” theory…)
But Athanasius, Priscillian, and Cyrprian do a little more than simply saying something “close” to 1 John 5:7. Twice the passage is attributed directly to John. If age is a concern (as it is often claimed to be) then these have far greater antiquity than any of the most ancient manuscripts.
Incidentally, the vast majority of all support for any of the epistle of 1 John are “late” manuscripts… Half of the “oldest and best” manuscripts (as they are sometimes called) omit the entire book. That’s just something to consider when you hear people talking about “only late manuscript support” and the like.
A friend of mine once suggested that perhaps John really did “write” the words of 1 John 5:7, but in a different letter or writing other than what we refer to as 1 John today… and I guess that would assume that those church fathers were referring to that unknown mystery writing (of which we have no actual physical evidence of its existence for support.) But besides the lack of evidence, the theory hits a snag because 1 John requires an additional phrase for sufficient grammar. We only have two extant readings of the passage, and only one of those readings is grammatically correct.
And that winds up being the deciding factor when you have two different readings, and find that both were accepted. The check sum of a written language is its grammar, and for those of us that allow the scripture to be inspired, we must assume that the original text was written correctly in the first place.
So what is our goal here? To determine which is the most popular interpretation, which version of the manuscripts have been most widespread, or to determine the text of the original reading? Was the original text written correctly in the first place?
By the way, Matt, I appreciate the willingness to look at these things from new angles. Thanks.
Manuscripts vs Early Church Fathers
You wrote, “However, when a reading has support from church Fathers, a quote has a lot more weight than a simple manuscript. The reasons are thus: a manuscript could have been written by anybody (it is anonymous) but a church Father that quotes the scripture is testifying that this is what his scripture read.”
The problem here is there are no manuscripts in Greek from this time that have the verse at all. So all you have are a couple of quotes that are close. What is more, you haven’t addressed the fact that Cyril of Alexandria quoted 1 John 5:7 on three occasions around 400 AD and none of his quotations had the comma. That means none of the texts at his disposal had it either. So you have a somebody, Cyril, who didn’t have the Comma and you have a couple of guys who said things similar to the Comma.
The Athanasius quote says they are “three IN one” and not “three are one” Καὶ οἱ τρεῖς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν. I am not sure why the translator of that passage in the translation you quoted translated it the way they did.
The elephant in the room that no one wants to address is that there are only two extant readings of this passage in John. Both of them have Greek manuscript support, and there is supporting evidence that both were known, but one of the readings is so badly flawed that it could not have possibly been the original (correct) reading.
When there is a perfect quote from someone that identifies it as scripture from John, the response seems to be that he probably wasn’t reading from a Greek text. When someone speaks in Greek and says that it is scripture from John, the response is that his phrase wasn’t a precise match of the Greek manuscripts. When someone complains that his translators are omitting the passage from the Greek to the Latin it’s simply passed over. So these do not seem like good answers.
So while the elephant in the room continues to eat our decorative ferns, may we at least make sure that the rest of our reasoning is accurate?
No, I specifically commented (comment 30515) that Cyril likely had one of the damaged manuscripts in his possession. You’ve managed to establish that some people did not have the text of 1 John 5:7 in their copies, but this was never contested. My example of Gregory of Nazanius was proof enough of this, when he was pointing out that the Greek grammar of the passage was fatally flawed. Gregory didn’t have access to 1 John 5:7 either.
That’s a bit of an understatement. You have a couple people who didn’t have 1 John 5:7 (Cyril and Gregory) and you have a couple people who quote 1 John 5:7 and attribute the passage to John. So you’ve managed to establish that some people had access and some didn’t… which is precisely what I was saying before.
The field of textual criticism recognizes that the correct reading for a passage might be found even in only a single manuscript copy among hundreds of contrary manuscripts… there are other considerations that require accounting. Passages can inadvertently suffer damage and sometimes people will purposely attempt to strike passages from the record. That’s why we consult multiple manuscripts to avail ourselves of all the readings.
So here are the two choices:
1) You have a passage which has the vast majority reading in the extant Greek text, but it flawed internally (in meaning) and fatally flawed in grammar, as if there is a missing piece. You have some testimony (like from Cyril and Gregory) that they did not have access to a better Greek text. The elephant remains that the majority reading betrays a big hole in our jigsaw puzzle.
2) Or, you have the passage that is a minority reading in the extant Greek text (but it seems we used to have more Greek manuscripts than we do today) but resounding support in the Latin, it was quoted as scripture as far back as the third century, attributed to John, and Jerome testifies that it was present in the Greek manuscripts from which they translated the Vulgate. The passage fits internally (in meaning) and has no grammatical flaws.
3) There are no third readings.
This doesn’t seem like a hard choice, unless there are some other non-related factors that are determining how people want to believe on this.
Mr Patrick,
I am willing to engage this issue off and on. However, I have two questions:
1) You are demanding answers to a series of questions here. I will answer six of your seven questions regarding the Wallace paper. Do you agree in advance therefore to answer MY six questions in return?
2) How EXACTLY do you do textual criticism?
Do you simply count the manuscripts and pick the majority reading? How exactly do you do it? The reason I’m asking is that your presentation here ASSUMES what you have yet to prove. Rather than starting at the first century and going forward, you are assuming the reading in the KJV is somehow an infallible or inerrant standard.
Hello Wes,
I do not think that we have talked before, but those questions were specifically for Matt, and were based upon (presumed) our previous discussion and exchange. As such, they might not have the same relevance for a third party just entering the discussion.
1) If you have reasonable questions, I will endeavor to answer them the best I can.
2) There is not an exact “equation” with biblical data recovery, however, there are some pretty sensible guidelines.
First, I think it is proper to start with the assumption that the data can be recovered, and that it was written correctly (by God himself) in the first place. It may be that perhaps not everyone will start with this assumption.
Second, there are a variety of factors that must be considered, including Greek texts, support from text in other languages, majority vs. minority readings, lectionary readings, and when the passages are quoted by other writers as scripture.
Answering your sub-question, No, you do not simply count manuscripts (the ones you know about) and rule in favor of a majority to the exclusion of all other evidence.
As for the “reason you are asking” I think you might do well to review what I’ve said already before laying down a criticism of circular reasoning. Whether I might happen to think that the KJV is an infallible standard or not would be irrelevant, and I’ve used no such reasoning within this discussion. You’ve raised a straw man (which is rather unproductive.)
But if you are starting at the first century…. then you have nothing. Dead end, sorry. The entire New Testament has absolutely ZERO support from any first century manuscript. 🙂
By the way, I am not “Mr. Patrick.” In my case, Patrick is not a surname, it’s a middle name. But for the purposes of friendly discussion, do you have another name I may call you besides “Wes?”
“My example of Gregory of Nazanius was proof enough of this, when he was pointing out that the Greek grammar of the passage was fatally flawed. Gregory didn’t have access to 1 John 5:7 either.”
I don’t get what you are saying there…Gregory was critical of the grammar of a passage he didn’t have access to?
Let me respond to your points more thoroughly:
“The elephant in the room that no one wants to address is that there are only two extant readings of this passage in John. Both of them have Greek manuscript support, and there is supporting evidence that both were known, but one of the readings is so badly flawed that it could not have possibly been the original (correct) reading.”
– There are two major readings of this text. Both do have Greek manuscript support. The short reading (that you don’t think is original) has Greek manuscript support and Greek church Father support back to the 300s or so. The longer reading (you support) has early Latin manuscript support and early Latin church Father support. It has no Greek manuscript support for 1400 years. So yes they both have manuscript “support” but in the manuscript category, the shorter reading blows away the longer reading. There is just no denying that. You can make all the points you like but there is just no disputing the superiority of the manuscript evidence in Greek for the shorter reading.
– You say the longer reading is terribly flawed (grammatically, I suppose?). You haven’t studied Greek but those who have aren’t making that point. Raymond Brown (one of the most respected scholars on the Gospel and epistles of John to have ever lived) didn’t make that point. He actually went the other way, saying the longer reading was awkward. I just looked at the Greek text again and I honestly don’t see any awkwardness to it. Maybe Wescottandhort can give his 2 cents on the awkwardness of the shorter version.
“When there is a perfect quote from someone that identifies it as scripture from John, the response seems to be that he probably wasn’t reading from a Greek text. When someone speaks in Greek and says that it is scripture from John, the response is that his phrase wasn’t a precise match of the Greek manuscripts. When someone complains that his translators are omitting the passage from the Greek to the Latin it’s simply passed over. So these do not seem like good answers.”
– Cyril didn’t have it, Jerome didn’t have it, Clement didn’t have it, Cassiodorus didn’t have it. There are more we can cite who didn’t have the verse. Even the Cyprian quote is not an exact quote. Why not quote it exactly? You wonder why we say they weren’t reading from a Greek text? The reason is you are quoting Latin guys and the Greek ones you do cite aren’t even exact quotes! No wonder that is the point we are making. Could it be any clearer?
“So while the elephant in the room continues to eat our decorative ferns, may we at least make sure that the rest of our reasoning is accurate?”
– That goes both ways, of course.
“No, I specifically commented (comment 30515) that Cyril likely had one of the damaged manuscripts in his possession. You’ve managed to establish that some people did not have the text of 1 John 5:7 in their copies, but this was never contested. My example of Gregory of Nazanius was proof enough of this, when he was pointing out that the Greek grammar of the passage was fatally flawed. Gregory didn’t have access to 1 John 5:7 either.”
– What manuscript did Cyril have? You seem to know since you say he likely had a damaged one. How do you know that? You can prove your point based on assumptions. So the Cyril response doesn’t hold water. He didn’t have the verse and we aren’t aware of the quality of his MSS. In fact, the point can be made the the Greek Cyril did have at his disposal was consistent with every single pre 1400 Greek manuscript of 1 John 5 that we have at our disposal. With that in mind, it sounds more like Cryil had a good copy of that verse…one that was actually in line with the other manuscripts of his day but not in line with post 1400 Greek MSS.
“That’s a bit of an understatement. You have a couple people who didn’t have 1 John 5:7 (Cyril and Gregory) and you have a couple people who quote 1 John 5:7 and attribute the passage to John. So you’ve managed to establish that some people had access and some didn’t… which is precisely what I was saying before.”
– Again, we have no exact quote of it from the guys you mention. A quote is exact. You can’t call the things you have presented quotes.
“The field of textual criticism recognizes that the correct reading for a passage might be found even in only a single manuscript copy among hundreds of contrary manuscripts… there are other considerations that require accounting. Passages can inadvertently suffer damage and sometimes people will purposely attempt to strike passages from the record. That’s why we consult multiple manuscripts to avail ourselves of all the readings.”
– That is correct. You are making my points for me. We have no pre-1400 Greek manuscript with the Comma. Did all of them suffer damage? Or why are you so opposed to see this as the original reading? Saying John had poor grammar (which to me doesn’t even seem to be the case – I have studied Greek at the graduate level, by the way).
“So here are the two choices:
1) You have a passage which has the vast majority reading in the extant Greek text, but it flawed internally (in meaning) and fatally flawed in grammar, as if there is a missing piece. You have some testimony (like from Cyril and Gregory) that they did not have access to a better Greek text. The elephant remains that the majority reading betrays a big hole in our jigsaw puzzle.”
– You have said it was flawed in Grammar. Show me how please. You are now saying it is flawed in meaning. Proof? Here it is in context,
“6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”
Help me see how that is flawed. It actually has a really nice symmetry to it.
“2) Or, you have the passage that is a minority reading in the extant Greek text (but it seems we used to have more Greek manuscripts than we do today) but resounding support in the Latin, it was quoted as scripture as far back as the third century, attributed to John, and Jerome testifies that it was present in the Greek manuscripts from which they translated the Vulgate. The passage fits internally (in meaning) and has no grammatical flaws.”
3) There are no third readings.
This doesn’t seem like a hard choice, unless there are some other non-related factors that are determining how people want to believe on this.”
Please re-read your two choices and see which ones seems more clear. The short reading
has ALL/100% of the early Greek manuscript support and Latin support as well (that hasn’t been mentioned). It is supported by the early church fathers in Greek as well. I can’t tell that is suffers in meaning or grammar (help me see that please). The Comma is non-existant in pre-1400 Greek texts. It has no actual quote from early church fathers, although they did say things that were similar. By the way, the wikipedia article on the comma says Jerome didn’t have it (that is why I said that above). Can you get me the Jerome quote that he got it from the texts he used to translate the Vulgate? That would be really helpful. According to Raymond Brown (who knew Greek better than either of us) said the Comma was more awkward, not less. The choice seems very clear to me, more clear than at any other point in our conversation on this.
Actually, I will call you Andrew (assuming you do not mind) and you can call me Chuck.
Andrew,
I have a long written response that I will post at the bottom here in the next day or two. (I’m at work today). I will also look over your own reponses and proceed accordingly.
God bless.
OK, please note I’m finding this confusing. I’ve not used such before. That being said I’m having trouble following the nested replies, so I will simply respond here at the bottom if that’s fine.
Trying again?
OK, it appears I’m here.
Therefore, let’s begin.
1) Did you stop to read the John Gill commentary on 1 John 5:7?
The answer is yes. I’m not quite sure what you think this proves. We could go on citing scholar after scholar. Over 90% of those who comment on this verse note its non-originality. This tiny sampling you’ve provided here ignores two issues: 1) the discoveries since Gill wrote; and 2) the commentaries since then. Furthermore, have you read Carson’s 1979 refutation of Gill’s comments? To show how in error Gill is (just for one example), can you give me the names of the 9 copies of Stephanus that allegedly contained 1 John 5:7 in that day – and where are they now? Plus you aware that Stephanus’ copies were NOT ancient even though Gill says they were.
Furthermore, who else invokes the Gill argument and cites the manuscripts?
Now please note – I don’t consider “such and such a scholar said x” to be much of an argument anyway. Scholars have varying degrees of competence in various fields. But I don’t consider saying “John Gill said” to be much of an argument. After all, I could list a multitude of scholars – Trinitarians – and they almost universally reject this passage. So while I’ve read this particular point, I don’t quite see what you think it proves.
2) Did you stop to read the Matthew Henry commentary at 1 John 5:7?
Yes. I also know Henry didn’t write it as he died and it was later added by others finishing his work. But Henry hardly addresses specifics. He mentions specific things but then answers them vaguely. For example, he suggests that homoioteleuton (similar endings) could have caused the omission. That’s an acceptable answer if we were talking about either one or some manuscripts. In this case, I’m supposed to believe that the omission can be explained by the idea that every single person copying it in the first century or so after it was written somehow all committed the same error. Surely you don’t believe that happened.
Post?
In response to Andrew:
This in response to Andrew’s comments up the board. There was no reply feature that I could find – and as I stated earlier, I am new here.
ANDREW:
There are no grammatical difficulties?
CHUCK:
Not a one.
ANDREW:
That seems rather strange seeing that the folk that spoke Greek in those days recognized the problem back then. I may not be fluent in Greek, but I did take the time to study the passage until I could identify the difference, and whereas I may not be an expert in Greek myself, it seems that Gregory of Nazanius was.
CHUCK:
No, sir. With all due respect this is incorrect. Michael Maynard made this mistake and I believe (but could be wrong) that Thomas Holland did as well.
Gregory of Nazianzus commented on the passage thusly:
For I also will assert that Peter and James and John are not three or consubstantial, so long as I cannot say Three Peters, or Three Jameses, or Three Johns; for what you have reserved for common names we demand also for proper names, in accordance with your arrangement; or else you will be unfair in not conceding to others what you assume for yourself. What about John then, when in his Catholic Epistle he says that there are Three that bear witness: the Spirit and the Water and the Blood? Do you think he is talking nonsense? First, because he has ventured to reckon, under one numeral, things which are not consubstantial, though, you say this ought to be done only in the case of things which are consubstantial. For who would assert that these are consubstantial? Secondly, because he had not been consistent in the way he has happened upon his terms; for after using Three words which are neuter, contrary to the definitions and laws which you and your Grammarians have laid down. For what is the difference between putting a masculine Three first, and then adding One and One and One in the neuter, or after a masculine One and One and One to use the Three not in the masculine but in the neuter, which you yourself disclaim in the case of Deity? What have you to say about the Crab, which may mean either an animal, or an instrument or a constellation? And what about the Dog, now terrestrial, now aquatic, now celestial? Do you not see that three crabs or dogs are spoken of? Why of course it is so. Well then, are they therefore of one substance? None but a fool would say that. So you see how completely your argument from connumeration has broken down, and is refuted by all these instances. For if things that are of one substances are not always counted under one numeral, and things not of one substances are thus counted, and the pronunciation of the name once for all is used in both cases, what advantage do you gain towards your doctrine?
END QUOTE
Maynard reads this and comes up with this: “thus Gregory of Nazianzus objected to the omission of 1 John v.7f.” This has also been claimed by Timothy Duncan’s paper and his online site that you mentioned earlier up the page. Unfortunately, the claim is erroneous. Simply read the passage above. Gregory is not debating the details of Greek grammar as Maynard suggests, but he is instead responding to a critic polemically that the Trinity cannot be enumerated as three gods and explaining why. His examples are very explicit as to what he is referencing. Gregory notes that this use of the neuter with the masculine is not contrary to biblical or Greek grammar but rather to “the laws” of grammar that Trinitarian objectors have used. Contextually, he is referring to the persons of the Trinity. He never hints at the notion he is aware of another reading or that the grammar is incorrect. It is therefore incorrect to say that Gregory invoked the grammatical argument.
GRAMMATICAL PROBLEM in verse eight? John Oxlee pointed this out to Nolan in 1824 and Nolan’s ingenious response was to read it going backwards!!! (I would note also that this so-called grammatical problem doesn’t do much good on another front – pneuma hagion is actually in the neuter following the masculine participle even in the Comma. Nolan’s response is to say that it has had “masuculineness” forced upon it, a creative way of saying that his proposed solution didn’t work).
Consequently, I do sincerely hope you will not continue the claim of a grammatical error. Gregory cited no such thing, the error does not exist as numerous counter-examples prove, and you basically have six guys who make the claim against the bulk of Greek scholarship on the other side.
Thank you for clearing this up. I looked at the verse without the Comma and couldn’t find anything wrong with it in Greek. I appreciate you going back and clearing up the confusion on what Gregory was saying as well. Seems pretty clear to me. Context is so important. Thanks for going to the source and providing the actual data/info.
I am no longer able to *track* these threads, but regardless, it is extremely difficult to coherently respond to 18 new posts that were put up after I said that I was going to be absent for reasons of moving. So briefly,
… it seems to me that y’all (Matt and Chuck) do not understand the grammar issue here. Greek nouns have gender, and the rest of the sentence is required to match the gender of those nouns. For example (of our case in point):
1Jn 5:8
(8) και τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες εν τη γη το πνευμα και το υδωρ και το αιμα και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν
This verse standing alone is grammatically incorrect. Here’s Gregory (again) reminding us of the rules of the language.
If you were speaking Spanish, would you refer to a group of three women as “los hermanos?” That likewise would be a grievous grammatical error, and potentially insulting. However, those same three women would be part of “los hermanos” if at least one male member were present. If your original document address six siblings (with at least one male) this would explain why “los hermanos” would be used.
So now let’s look again at our passage:
1Jn 5:7-8
(7) οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες εν τω ουρανω ο πατηρ ο λογος και το αγιον πνευμα και ουτοι οι τρεις εν εισιν
(8) και τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες εν τη γη το πνευμα και το υδωρ και το αιμα και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν
Within the fuller context (including verse 7) now there is no grammatical problem, because in the Greek language both “pater” and “logos” have male gender, and this transference applies to the “three” in both verses.
Just as a demonstration of how “three” can be used with differing gender:
Act 10:19 GNT-TR
(19) του δε πετρου ενθυμουμενου περι του οραματος ειπεν αυτω το πνευμα ιδου ανδρες τρεις ζητουσιν σε
three men = ανδρες τρεις
1Co 13:13 GNT-TR
(13) νυνι δε μενει πιστις ελπις αγαπη τα τρια ταυτα μειζων δε τουτων η αγαπη
three (faith, hope, and charity) = τρια (but not the masculine τρεις)
It seems to me that one of the motivations against 1 John 5:7 is an emotional resistance against the idea that some of those obnoxious “King James Only” folk might be right on this passage. That might not be a comfortable consideration.
I think it is fair to ask one question on a post (and to wait for and respect a response) so I will ask (perhaps rhetorically, if no one shall answer) … should we expect that the original manuscripts of the New Testament (inspired by the Holy Ghost) be inerrant, in both content and grammar? Or does God not know how to speL and never lernt grammur?
So when faced with two extant Greek readings, and only one of them fits, why is this such a hard choice?
P.S. Chuck…. if you want a longer conversation, please contact me via email. You can find the address by following my Gravatar link. This is too much to wade through.
ANDREW:
However, before you start lighting off on a tangential direction on some questions that were not aimed at you in the first place, would you mind introducing yourself?
CHUCK:
Now Andrew – I’m going to quote what you said earlier on September 10:
If by any chance Daniel Wallace is one of your good friends, could you please bring him forward so we can discuss his piece out in the open where others can see both questions and answers? Please understand my frustration with this grand game of keep-away
Now I would note that your tone was much less than charitable and more than just a little insulting. No, I am not Dan Wallace. No, I do not represent or speak for him. But you asked Matt several questions here. Your words were that you had some questions you hoped that he would answer. And you also stated that you had written against this particular paper and that you are frustrated with a game of keep away.
Well, I’m here to answer your questions. I have already shown that your Gill and Henry arguments are not exactly based upon much more than “X said this, but Y said this.” I don’t consider such comments scholarly, but I realize it is the norm in the day of the Net. So I hope you will not mind me answering the questions you stated you wanted answered.
I have spent some 14 years dabbling in textual criticism with an intense focus the last seven. This particular verse is troublesome on the popular level, which explains my interest in it.
6) Have these internal problems been addressed by Daniel Wallace in this (or another) paper?
Although not dealing specifically with 1 John 5:7 (which he obviously rejects), the answer is yes. Wallace dealt with so-called grammatical problems regarding lack of concord in “Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit,” Bulletin For Biblical Research 13.1 (2003), 97-125.
ANDREW:
There’s multiple problems with this theory, the first of which is that historically the passage was often an embarrassment to the Trinity position (when not dealing with Arians). For example, if this was a fourth century Latin homily to refer to members of the Trinity, then why does Tertullian debate the meaning of “these three are one” (rather than disputing the validity of the phrase) with Praxaes as early as 213 AD?
CHUCK:
I’m gonna go way out on a limb here and say it’s because that’s in the text regardless. It is amusing to me how much mileage people want to get out of a phrase that is already in verse eight. But before going further please give me the specific citation from Tertullian so I can look it up and know what specifically you’re talking about. (I think I know, but please indulge me).
ANDREW:
And if this was merely a fourth century Latin homily to refer to members of the Trinity, then why did Priscillian (who was not Trinitarian) quote the passage and attribute it to the apostle John?
CHUCK:
Priscillian is the Latin homily in question – that kind of answers that question does it not? Note also that not only does he quote it but he adds the words “in Christ Jesus” to the quote. Are you now suggesting that John wrote those words as well? If not then I fail to see how this is overly relevant other than to note you may not have known Priscillian is quoting the homily in question, “Lieber Apologeticus.” This is the first CERTAIN quote of the passage you’re talking about.
ANDREW:
“First, it is being argued earlier than the fourth century;”
CHUCK:
I will set this aside until you give me the specific quote by Tertullian.
ANDREW:
Second, it’s absence leaves a gap in the Greek text, not the Latin.
CHUCK:
You’re in error about the grammar as I pointed out, but I will address this further when I ask you a series of questions that I fully expect you to answer as I have yours.
ANDREW:
And third, the passage was actually inconvenient for the Trinitarian position, rather than a comprising a helpful homily.
CHUCK:
I am assuming that you are alleging (as Nolan did) that the Sabellians would have quoted this verse. Why then do we not have Christian explanations as to why the Trinity is found here? In point of fact, it seems to me this passage would be all over the place with back and forth debate over the meaning of the words. The fact there is total silence about such debate suggests strongly such a passage never existed at the time in the Greek language. Numerous fathers include Ambrose quote everything around the Comma but never once hint at it.
Going back, however, to your allegation that there is somehow a gap in the Greek. It is what you are alleging that truly frightens me. I am aware that a very tiny group of KJV Onlyists has invoked this argument, and the reason they get away with it is because nobody in their congregation knows enough Greek to challenge them on it. But there are numerous places where there is grammatical disagreement. Consider two examples. The first is in 1 Cor. 13:13. In that verse, the neuter three occurs with three feminine nouns. How is this any different than the passage in 1 John without the Comma? Or what about 1 Cor. 6:9-11, where the word “these” is in neuter and the sins listed are all masculines? Once again, how is this any different than 1 John 5:7? And finally, even if one removes the verse (“the gap” as you call it), there is still grammatical disagreement in verse eight, a point that was made by Horne in 1824, Oxlee in 1825, and Westcott in 1892. How then can you allege that there is a gap when the same grammatical problem occurs?
Now – in light of the fact I have dealt with your seven questions and quite fairly might I add, I expect the same courtesy in return. I will deal with the Tertullian quote when you give me specifics regarding where it is
Now please answer my questions:
1) Conceding the Greek manuscript testimony (none prior to 1215) and assuming for the sake of argument your “gap” allegation – who specifically removed the passage and please show how you know this?
2) If you’re alleging heretics removed the gap then they must have had immense intelligence to be able to round up every Greek manuscript on the planet and remove the Comma. How could such people have been so intelligent to remove the Comma yet not intelligent enough to alter the grammar in 1 John 5:7 (to use the neuter rather than masculine)?
3) If John wrote this Comma then why is it missing not only in Greek but also in every language derived directly from Greek?
4) Is there any other passage of Scripture in the KJV that you would use the exact same text-critical method that has no Greek support for so long?
5) Do you seriously believe that every single person who was copying 1 John somehow looked away at the manuscript at the exact same time and place and thus removed the same passage without a trace multiple (possibly hundreds of) times?
6) Do you support changing the text of the New Testament to support other readings from the same Greek manuscripts that contain the Comma? (For example, do you favor rewriting 1 John to match Codex Montfortianus precisely?). If not then why?
7) If as you say 1 John 5:7 was intentionally not quoted by Christians during the Trinitarian controversies because it would embarrass them, why then did you also say Cyprian quoted it?
Hello Matt and Chuck,
I just got my internet connected today and see that about eighteen (18) messages have piled up on this thread. I’ll try to get back later, but it’s a bit hard to keep a coherent conversation with chains of reply-to-and-replied-to posts.
Andrew,
Just a response to your questions about the grammar of this passage. Not sure if Chuck has anything to say on this…he probably didn’t know you typed it since it was written as a reply to me and not to him. Anyway, I have been looking over the Greek in the Comma as well as some other verses that shed light on this for us. If you leave out the Comma you have a present, active, participle (nominative, plural, masculine) referring to three neuter nouns (spirit, water and blood). If you keep the Comma you have a present, active, participle (nominative, plural masculine) referring to 2 masculine nouns (father and word) and one neuter noun (Holy Spirit).
Above you said this, ” it seems to me that y’all (Matt and Chuck) do not understand the grammar issue here. Greek nouns have gender, and the rest of the sentence is required to match the gender of those nouns.”
First, lets talk about some exceptions to what you just said there…There are several other verses that show your conclusion about how nouns, verbs and direct objects work in Greek is incorrect.
Number:
Gal 5:22 has the “fruit of the Spirit” (singular noun) with a singular verb (is) and then multiple direct objects (love, joy, peace…etc) and he concludes with “against these things” (plural) there is no law. Sounds pretty confusing because here the number doesn’t match up from noun to verb to direct object. You said above the rest of the sentence is required to match the noun and verb…it doesn’t here. Did the Holy Spirit not know Greek…as you asked in your comment (“should we expect that the original manuscripts of the New Testament (inspired by the Holy Ghost) be inerrant, in both content and grammar? Or does God not know how to speL and never lernt grammur?”)? Or maybe your understanding of Greek rules is incomplete. Which is more likely, especially considering you haven’t ever had a class on Koine Greek.
Gender:
Your assertion was that Greek nouns have gender and that the rest of the sentence has to match the gender of the noun. How about Ephesians 1:13-14 has the same word here as in 1 John 5:7-8 “Spirit”. At the end of 1:13 Spirit is neuter but it is then referred to in 1:14 as ο εστιν αρραβων which means “who is a deposit” (all nominative/subject, singular, masculine) and refers directly back to the neuter Holy Spirit. So there you have neuter H.S. being referred to by masculine nouns. So your assertion about rock solid, 100% never to be violated rules of gender agreement doesn’t stand up either.
Daniel Wallace does offer a plausible explanation for the gender differences between the participle and the objects in 1 John 5:7-8 is that John is using the idea of 2-3 male witnesses being needed to validate something (Deut 19:15)…so he makes the participle masculine to refer to the three neuter witnesses. Just a thought as to why it might be there like that.
Anyway, don’t miss my point…your hard and fast rules of grammar have exceptions. So it is unfair to say God couldn’t have inspired it that way because He did in other instances.
Looking at your examples,
Content-wise, it isn’t really confusing to me. There is no law against love, joy, or peace, but it is the whole conglomerate effect is the fruit of the Spirit. If any of these elements were divorced from the others, then that would not be the fruit of the Spirit.
In English, there is a slight change in meaning between “fruit of the Spirit” and “fruits of the Spirit” but a grammatical rule that “fruit” requires “is” and “fruits” require “are.” So Greek-wise, are you saying that Galatians 5:22 is merely confusing or actually grammatical incorrect?
Perhaps I was not phrasing my words well, but then again, I am not claiming expertise. One wouldn’t even gain fluency (or language mastery) from a dozen semesters. So rather than attempting to use my own credentials, I was relying on a native speaker, namely, Gregory, who said that the 1 John passage (lacking verse 7) was contrary to all the rules of grammar.
Whether I have ever taken “classes” in “koine Greek” is irrelevant. But, if we are on that topic, I did check with someone else where you disagreed on the translation of “these three are one” from that other document were were discussing. Are you interested in what he said?
Back to the topic, I understand that we are not debating whether the Greek majority reading of 1 John is “contrary to the rules of grammar” or not, but rather whether there are provable exceptions to the grammar in scripture?
I’d like to look at the Ephesians 1:13 a bit more. Immediately I’m noticing that your translation is different, and so I’m wondering if you also have the same source text. “Who is a deposit” (NIV) implies you’re talking about an individual, whereas “which is the earnest” seems more appropriate for a neuter.
To make sure that I understand, are you saying that Ephesians 1:13-14 absolutely violates the rules of Greek grammar (and if so, do you have an authority to support this?)
That explanation doesn’t make sensible sense to me… I guess I am saying that it doesn’t sound very plausible. And if we’re back to internal arguments, there’s the problem that in verse 9 John compares “the witness of men” with “the witness of God” and if you only have verse six then there is no “witness of God” to be referenced.
If God inspired flawed grammar in other instances, then your point would have merit, but …
1) that presumes that there really are other instances that allow for no other explanation than flawed grammar (not merely possibly confusing to someone else),
2) that presumes that you are evaluating them correctly as to whether they are correct or not (how many semesters grants one proper fluency and/or mastery of a language?)
3) that presumes that if we were to find provable instances of flawed grammar, whether we would consider them as legitimate and therefore, truly inspired (are we assuming that we have extant copies of all of the original text?)
… so rather than accepting your conclusion, I am questioning its assumptions. I think that identifying those assumptions might be helpful. Yes, one could contend that scripture might have flawed grammar, but it would really help to have solid supporting examples that could be easily illustrated.
I meant to say previous that I messed up on the athanasius quote. At least that is my memory…hard for me to check on my phone. I am not saying God violated Greek grammar laws. I am saying your understanding that Greek rules for number and gender are not the 100 percent absolutes you said they are. Sorry if I didnt’t communicate that well. Chuck dealt with the Gregory quote above if my memory is right…again hard to look back on my phone.
I’m sure that I do not understand all the nuances of Greek grammar, but Gregory grew up with the language and was a lot closer to it than any of us are… and he said that the passage (his access was to Greek was without verse seven) violated all the laws that their grammarians had laid down. What Chuck did (earlier) was to provide the very lengthy text surrounding Gregory’s quote… which didn’t do anything to change what we already established. All we got was more text.
On a related tangent: Hypothetically, could there be a third reading for this passage that would have been the actual original text? That is, perhaps the majority reading might not be correct, but perhaps the minority reading might not be correct either… if the real reading was yet undiscovered?
After all, there’s no guarantee that scripture has to be preserved as majority readings in any particular language, is there? No textual critic would be able to maintain that argument. So I’m not trying to sell anyone on this hypothetical scenario, but how would this possibility be fairly weighed and considered?
Andrew – I am working through parsing the two verses and will get back to you on the grammar of it when I am able. Thanks.
Satan loves when we argue about the Word of God. The more we focus on translation differences, the more we lose focus on Him. I’m not saying there aren’t important and valid reasons for these disagreements, I just think a debate that goes on for three years on a single blog is a bit much. We are all sinners, the translators on all sides were sinners. We can argue all day long about different manuscripts or we can decide to focus on what matters. Our Lord and Savior came to die for us. He is coming back. Let’s spend our time helping people be ready for His return rather than spending our time on this. These are just my thoughts, please don’t think I mean any harm or offense to anyone by them. In Him. -Rebekah L.
Thanks for your comment. It is certainly important to speak the truth in love. By the way, the conversation with Andrew doesn’t go all the back to when the post was written three years ago. The reason it continues is because I don’t like to ignore people, especially when they discuss things in an informed and respectful way, as he has done.
I actually didn’t mean to reply to the thread specific to Andrew, as it more applied to the entire post in general, but I respect what you said about not wanting to ignore people. And though I don’t agree with a debate going on this long, I appreciate your obvious effort to keep it respectful. God Bless you and all your readers 🙂
There can be value in the manner of the discussion even regardless of the thing being discussed (1 Cor 13:2… “though I have all knowledge… and have not charity, I am nothing.”)
From that perspective, I think it’s more healthy to be able to talk about something controversial in an open fair way, than to have certain subjects that must remain taboo to avoid a chance of “rocking the boat.” An artificial peace is not a real peace.
The same NIV read thus in Rev 22 :18 – 19 , I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book : If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Do they committee really understand what they translate at all ?
You didn’t answer my two questions
Alas to see Christians at variance with each other in a holly war about the Bible.
This is absurd.Thank God for my brother who enlighten me on this NIV Bible I agree with Jess , and the author can use 1001 words to justify his mission.Jess is rifht about in the end times there will be false prophets.As soon as I get home I will destroy / burn my NIV.I was blind now I see.The beauty is that I brought it with my own money.
Hello. I noticed that on this forum someone claimed I have an error in my document https://bibletranslation.ws/trans/revwgrk.pdf Specifically re: Rev 5:14b as found in KJV. Posters here are unaware of the various numbers used to refer to the same manuscripts. Tischendorf and Scrivener had numbers they used that are no longer used, but are replaced by Gregory numbers. Manuscripts 57 and 141 are now called Gregory 296 and 2049. These are not Greek manuscipts in the normal sense, because they are handwritten copies of printed editions. In other words, they do not bolster the Textus Receptus as sources for the Textus Receptus, because they ARE the Textus Receptus. See where Hoskier states this plainly in Text Volume 2, p. 156, lines 26,27, where he says “Negl. 57 et 141 ex ed. typ. exscripti.” (This means, “Ignore 57 and 141 since they are handwritten copies of printed editions.”) So yes, the only Greek manuscript that contains the last part of Rev. 5:14 as found in the KJV, is MS 2045. In the back of my document are tables for converting all the Tisch/Scrivener numbers to Gregory. Also, I have one of the most complete listings of MSS for Johannine Comma: https://bibletranslation.ws/trans/FirstJohnCh5v7.pdf
Another source of confusion regarding the old system of manuscript numbers, is that several different manuscripts can have the same number even within that system; for example, 57 evan. and 57 apoc are completely different manuscripts; one is 12th century, the other 16th century. Let’s look at manuscripts 57 and 141. Manuscript 57 evan. is 57 for the gospels, a 12th century manuscript, but is ms nr. 85 for Acts, Ms. nr. 41 for Paul’s epistles! Confused yet? And manuscript 57 apoc. is a 16th century handwritten copy of a Textus Receptus printed edition of Revelation! Ms. 57 Acts is with Evan 274. As for 141, Evan 141 is a 13th century MS containing the gospels. But Ms 141 for Acts, is with 386 Evan. And Ms 141 apoc is a 16th century hand-written copy made off a printed Textus Receptus. Do you see why that system was replaced by the Gregory numbering system? Please, stop using the old numbers. You will either confuse your readers, or deceive your readers. Hopefully, your deception is not intentional.
As you have stated, the numbers are easy to confuse. There is no need to say someone is purposefully being deceptive here. Thank you for trying to clear things up.
Hi Matt, I said I *hope* no one is purposely deceiving. I consider the propagation of false information, even when not knowing it is false, as still deceiving. It is not purposeful, but the end result is people are still deceived. But after years of being informed that manuscript apoc 57 is not 12th century, but 16th century, and after years of being informed that 57 and 141 are not really Greek manuscript evidence, they are still being used. At what point can we call it willful? It is hard to be charitable to KJV onlyists, as they are constantly falsely accusing good Godly scholars of being deceptive. I congratulate you though Matt on being very patient and gracious to them. It is a miracle.
There is a big difference between being misinformed and being deceived. Ill intent is required for deception. That is just what the word means. Sorry to pick nits but there isn’t anyone being deceptive here (at least I hope not!). Misinformed, that is always possible.
Hey Matt! I haven’t had a chance to look into all the verses and research them but I was reading your comments and would have to agree with you on pretty much everything I’ve read so far (I’m still in the part of the comments where you are talking to Sonya Smith 5 years ago). I hope to join in on these comments as time permits. God bless you.
By the way, I’m actually originally from Searcy. I saw that you went to Harding. Great school. I don’t live in Arkansas anymore but hope to move back someday. I figured you were a member of the church of Christ by reading your comments and seeing how much truth you speak and how patient and gentle you are in your replies, even when people insult you and jump at you.
The Fact remains who stands to benefit from people “fixing” something that wasn’t broke the AV bible ?
The Fact remains has America become better since people in their pride started changing the AV version ?
The Fact remains you have this verse written so a 7 year old could understand
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
What is the fruit of the publisher of the NIV ?
Lets see Zondervan publishers is owned by harper Collins which also produces the satanic bible
Mat_7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat_7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
The question I ask you is whether you would rather go into battle with a dull sword or a razor sharp sword ? Or put another way would you rather cut a steak with one of those plastic butter knives or a sharp steak knife ?
Eze 33:31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
Would you rather to the words of Jesus Christ as written by the Holy SPIRIT through the millions of martyrs that died bringing the AV1611 through history for the english speaking folks or some modern prideful man who wants to justify sin ?
I am NOT for placing prince james or those translators on a pedestal seeing they are just men .
I AM therefore AGAINST 1000% changing something that is NOT BROKEN and has born UNMEASUREABLE amount of FRUIT to the Glory of Jesus Christ
What fruit has all these MODERN “translations” brought ?
CONFUSION AMUNG THE ISRAEL OF THE CREATOR , which according to the HOLY BIBLE is not of the CREATOR but the DEVIL
1Co_14:33 For GOD is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
This should be a simple matter for a sincere follower of Jesus Christ , but biblical discernment is very lacking in these days , all seem to want to follow teachers rather than the Holy SPIRIT
There are a few things you need to study on this. Read up on what Greek and Hebrew manuscripts were used to translate the AV and which ones were used by the NIV translators. Much of this boils down to the fact that in 1984 they had 5000 more manuscripts to work from that were 1000 years older than what they had in 1611. Until you understand how translations and the transmission of the text works, you will continue to believe what you believe. It really isn’t all that complicated. The AV did they best they could with the manuscripts they had. Better ones have been found in the last 400 years…the NIV used those and found some verses had been added in over time. They took them out. It is as simple as that. Hope that helps you in your studies. God bless
Allow me to address your concerns a little more directly…hopefully this will be helpful to your study,
“The Fact remains who stands to benefit from people “fixing” something that wasn’t broke the AV bible ?”
The NIV was translated by committee and the responsibility of any Bible translation committee is to give the most accurate, best translation they can give. That means starting with the best manuscripts they have at their disposal. That is just good, responsible scholarship and translation. It is not about what is in it for them. They devote their lives to understanding the text. If you start with subpar texts, you can’t give the best you can give. You are reading ulterior motives into the process that aren’t warranted.
“The Fact remains has America become better since people in their pride started changing the AV version ?”
This has nothing to do with how they translated the NIV. Things were bad in 1611 too…how does that play into the 1611 translation?
“The Fact remains you have this verse written so a 7 year old could understand
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
You have this backwards…the KJV has extra words, not the NIV. The NIV took out what was added over years of copying. The KJV included those because that is all they had in the texts at their disposal.
“What is the fruit of the publisher of the NIV ?
Lets see Zondervan publishers is owned by harper Collins which also produces the satanic bible
Mat_7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat_7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”
Zondervan has nothing to do with the Satanic Bible. Sorry to burst your bubble. You are trying to build a case with very weak, even non-existant evidence. The very fact that you have to do that shows that you don’t have anything to stand on.
“The question I ask you is whether you would rather go into battle with a dull sword or a razor sharp sword ? Or put another way would you rather cut a steak with one of those plastic butter knives or a sharp steak knife ?”
Sharp and accurate is better…the NIV was translated from better manuscripts which results in a sharper translation. The KJV is an ok translation but it is lacking in many ways. We can discuss those if you like. We can also discuss the weaknesses of the NIV if you want to do that. Every translation has weaknesses.
“Eze 33:31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
Would you rather to the words of Jesus Christ as written by the Holy SPIRIT through the millions of martyrs that died bringing the AV1611 through history for the english speaking folks or some modern prideful man who wants to justify sin ?”
Read the Translators to the Reader in Preface of the 1611 KJV…this is what the translators wanted you to know when they translated it. These are the very men you admire so much. They warned you not to think like that when they did the translation in 1611. Here is a link. Please take a moment to read it – https://www.kjvbibles.com/kjpreface.htm
“I am NOT for placing prince james or those translators on a pedestal seeing they are just men .
I AM therefore AGAINST 1000% changing something that is NOT BROKEN and has born UNMEASUREABLE amount of FRUIT to the Glory of Jesus Christ
What fruit has all these MODERN “translations” brought ?”
Modern translations have been a part of converting millions. What is the problem in that? You are right…don’t place these men on a pedestal or their translation.
“CONFUSION AMUNG THE ISRAEL OF THE CREATOR , which according to the HOLY BIBLE is not of the CREATOR but the DEVIL
1Co_14:33 For GOD is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
I have no idea how this plays into the discussion. Read those verses in context.
“This should be a simple matter for a sincere follower of Jesus Christ , but biblical discernment is very lacking in these days , all seem to want to follow teachers rather than the Holy SPIRIT”
Discernment is certainly lacking these days. It is good to be informed. I am trying to inform you on this issue. I hope it has been helpful!
Are there any issues with using the Geneva bible 1599?
Hi Brian, thank you for your question. The Geneva Bible was translated from a more Calvinist perspective. It had 3 revisions, the last being the most anti-Catholic (especially in the notes). There was a fourth revision into a new translation called the Bishop’s Bible and that translation was the one most used in the churches of its day (1570s). However, the Geneva Bible was selling more copies than the Bishop’s Bible at that time. So the Bishop’s Bible was just that…one used by the clergy in the churches of the day, while the Geneva Bible was one used more popularly by the people. It has some great innovations for translations including using paragraphs and italicizing words that were not in the text but needed in translation. Hope that helps!
It’s interesting to me that the owner of the web site you reference in your post has gone to some trouble to avoid identifying him/herself. Looking up the “whois” listing for the web site, there is no identifying information about the individual. It’s all hidden behind an LLC.
Curious that the author does not want to be accountable for his/her commentary.
i really fail to understand as to why such debates even start ? The only thing i have to say here that if an individual feels the presence of Holy Spirit while reading the bible he /she has, then do not get into this kind of debates but rather enjoy the presence of the Lord through the Word that you are reading. No offence to any one here, my own experience has been that i always felt the presence of the Lord with me when i read the KJV and the lord speaks to me and reveals to me the hidden secret and teasures of the Word, which i find missing when i read the NIV or any versions that has come after KJV.
Jesus Christ Himself said that satan is the father of liars!!!!!!!!!! NIV must be a devil’s agent. Why is it that the verses that they removed are the most important verses in the bible????? Like the one about prayer and fasting, or the verse about rapture and many more. I think their mission is to make the Word of God extinct in the future generations. Woe unto whoever did this, Hell is real and Heaven is real.
I have been researching, reading, and have read most of the above comments. I have an observation to make to this discussion. When we send missionaries to another country, culture and they have to learn the language of those people, and have no written language, the missionaries first learn the oral language, then try and create a written language. this is done so they can create a New Testament and then an Old Testament for these folks. Wycliff Bible Translators this is what they do.
So my question is this, what do these missionaries use to base their translation on? How does a missionary decide what words to use in this new language in a different culture? I am almost positive that the translators use the Greek and Hebrew text to create a translation in this new language.
Now, another example is this: in our English translations, including KJV, NIV and all others, we use the word heart. In Hebrew, the actual meaning of the word is kidney or stomach. So, God sees…the kidney. Is this wrong to use a word like heart for the word to word translation of hebrew word that literally means kidney?
another word in english in the new testament, word in english is ‘love’. in the greek, all greek text including ones KJV was based on, there are three different (some say 4 different) greek words in the greek text that are used for love. but in english, all english versions the word LOVE is used. is this wrong? 3 greek words, one meaning friendship, one meaning physical or sexual, and the other agape–supernatural or unconditional love. but we use the word love for all. including KJV.
there is more to all this then accepting the KJV as the only version, or blasting modern translations. there is no perfect translation, anywhere. anytime a “person” is in charge of translating there are going to be problems. Unless someone is arguing that a modern translation including KJV is the “inspired word of God”> Last time I checked there was only one inspired word of God, only one inerrant word of God, and that was the original manuscripts. which we do not have any longer. so any translation, any translation is not going to be perfect. Just my observations. thanks
Thank you for your comment…you missed the point I was making and it is simply this – they are both translations. That is all I was saying…not that they are just alike in what their content or approach but that they are just alike only as far as they are both translations of the original languages.
The more I have looked at this I have actually decided that I got that wrong. The KJV was actually a revision of the Bishop’s bible and was not an original translation. So my original point you are quoting here was wrong from the start. This is why some call it the King James Bible rather than the King James Version. So I was wrong but not in the way you are saying. The two are very different.
Last, I don’t guess you realize that all translation, even revision, calls for interpretation. It is impossible to translate without interpreting the meaning of the text. I am guessing you haven’t ever translated the Bible into English or another language before? This is Bible translation 101 – translation requires interpretation. There is just no way around it. A perfectly literal, word for word translation would be horribly hard to read. Check out my Bible study links above and go to the Greek-English interlinear and read the literal English word-for-word words below each Greek word and see how you do. That is a literal, word for word translation…see how much interpretation you have to do in order to put the meaning of the sentences together. Hope that helps.
Matt. Thank you so much for all your researched info. It has been very helpful to glean such a tremendous depth of knowledge from you. It gives me great confidence to know that all our Bible translators are not ashamed to dig deep to render God’s word as close to the original as possible. Boy! You do have some patience with some of the critical replies. I do praise you for your controlled and polite responses.
One point I did not find in the discussion – if the KJV is so inerrant as some purport, then that must mean that for the first 1600 years God allowed most people to have incorrect versions? I can’t accept that.
I have come to realise over my 50 years of reading the Bible that we are often so tied up with the significance of a single word that we miss out on what God is actually trying to say. I have adopted the NLT over the last 5 years and God’s word and His teaching has come alive for me in a new, fresh and significant way that has increased my faith and my relationship with Jesus.
Whatever version we may have… the greater questions are 1) How much do you spend time reading it? ; 2) How much are you open to the Holy Spirit revealing His truth to you?; and 3) How much of it do you live it out in obedience and faith?
Thank you Matt for all the work you have put into this discussion.
My point needs clarification: I meant that if the ‘inerrant’ KJV is based upon around a dozen later manuscripts then prior to those manuscripts, for hundreds of years, particularly the earlier centuries nearer to the time of Christ, Christians must have had the Word of God based on errant manuscripts. That I can’t accept.
Our prayer should be as Paul prays in Ephesians 1:17,18 that we should have a Spirit of wisdom and revelation… and that our understanding should be enlightened.
It is my experience that God speaks and reveals his truth through ALL the modern translations. Thank God that knowing Him and growing in Him does not depend on human effort to produce a single definitive translation.
Let’s work through this a bit. First we need to discuss the nature of the “errors” that we find (generally speaking) in manuscripts and just how problematic these “errors” really are. A great resource on this for further study is Bruce Metzger’s The Text of the New Testament. He lists 7 main categories of errors in the copies of the text with subcategories on each one. This information should give you some room to see that when we are talking about people walking around with copies that had “errors” exactly what kind of errors they had in their copies and how significant those errors were. To demand that God must inspire not only the originals but all copies thereafter isn’t reasonable. Most of what I am about to post here is quotation. I am not using … because it would be too cumbersome but this list spans about a dozen or more pages. I am cutting it down so you get the idea and adding some explanation along the way, indicated by brackets.
“Unintentional changes
1a – Errors arising from faulty eyesight [letters that look the same. He gives specific examples if you are interested.]
1b – When two lines in the exemplar from which the scribe was making a copy happened to end with the same word or words, or even sometimes the same syllable, his eye might wander from the first to the second, accidentally omitting the whole passage lying between them.
2 – Errors arising from faulty hearing
[These are homonyms – if the one transcribing was saying the words aloud as they copied they might write another word that sounded the same. He sites Revelation 1:5 as an example where this very error turns the word freed into washed. The KJV had the error for washed which was an error in their text – they only had one of Revelation if my memory is right – that made it into the 1611 and beyond.]
3 – Errors of the mind
[These] seem to have arisen while the copyist was holding a clause or a sequence of letters in his memory between the glance at the manuscript to be copied and the writing down of what he saw there. In this way one must account for the origin of a multitude of changes involving the substitution of synonyms, variation in the order of words, and the transposition of letters.
3a – Substitution of synonyms
3b – Variations in the sequence of words
3c – Transposition of letters within a word sometimes resulting int he formation of a different word
3d – assimilation of the wording of one passage to the slightly different wording in a parallel passage, which may have been better known to the scribe, accounts for many alterations in the synoptic Gospels.
4 – Errors of judgment
[This is incorporating marginal comments and notes in the text. He notes a 14th century manuscript that had Luke’s genealogy all wrong and it can be explained from the copied manuscript having formatted the list into two columns and the copyist went straight across rather than down each column]
Intentional changes:
1 – Changes involving spelling and grammar
2 – Harmonistic corruptions
[A scribe who has a lot of scripture memorized harmonizes the passage he is copying from say another synoptic]
3 – Addition of natural complements and similar adjuncts
[adding to “chief priests” the scribes for instance]
4 – Clearing up historical and geographical difficulties
5 – Conflation of readings
[the scribe has multiple manuscripts in from of him and they are different so he copies something that adjusts it to fit what he has and comes up with something entirely new]
6 – Alterations made because of doctrinal considerations
[adding “yet” to Jesus saying he is not going to the feast, for instance so he doesn’t appear to be wrong because Jesus can’t be wrong]
7 – Addition of miscellaneous details”
The next question is just how frequently do these errors occur?
Daniel Wallace pointed out that if all we had was a single manuscript from the 10th century we would have no textual variants. The implied question is, would we be closer to the original for lack of variants?
Wallace also addresses the question of how many variants there are in the Greek New Testament. The answer is roughly 400,000. That sounds highly problematic but hang with me. There are 140,000 words in Greek New Testament. There are roughly 5800 ancient Greek manuscripts (not to mention other languages and quotations from the church fathers). I don’t remember the average manuscript length but it was pretty long, say 100 pages. So if you multiply that out the 400,000 variants don’t amount to much…around 1% of the text and remember of that 1% an error is even considered just switching two letters around…which is easily recognizable as an error. We would call it a typo and know exactly what the author was writing. Are you okay with 99% of the text in the person’s hand being sold on average and of that 1% being pretty easy to figure out what kind of error they made just by reading the text? I don’t have a problem with that.
Agreed!
I didnt agree to this, I agreed to the gentleman above you… :/
You don’t agree that manuscripts from 150-500 AD are more likely to be accurate than manuscripts from 1400 AD, which is what the KJV translators had?
To me, they are taking out the meaning and that Jesus was God. Like Dan 3:25, in the KJV it clearly says Son of God but in the NIV it says son of the gods…that, to me, is taking away the powere of Jesus and since a majority of the missing scriptures are about believing in Jesus and that He performed miracles, it is taking away Jesus’ power and the salvation you shall receive if you believe in Him.
I also say to look at Revelation 22:18-21. If you look at that in both the KJV and the NIV, they mean something entirely different. They don’t even want to say that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour. No matter what anyone says, the NIV denounces Jesus Christ as God incarnate and I will always read the KJV.
Ironic you would bring up don’t add to this book. Do you follow the logic of what happened here? As the Bible was copied for 1600 years there were several dozen verses on the New Testament that were added. Now that we have manuscripts 1300 years older than what the KJV translators had we consistently notice those verses absent in the oldest manuscripts. So it is more accurate to remove additions to scripture than to keep them. The KJV did the best they could with what they had. They would have done the same as the NIV if they were alive today because they were trying to be faithful to the scriptures and manuscripts. What is more, it might shock you to find out that the NIV actually translates verses more often toward the divinity of Jesus than the KJV. Hope that helps. Blessings in your study.
Sorry Matt, but I don’t think you have given the NIV omission of Matthew 17:21 a fair innings. The reference is correlated with Mark 9: 29, which the NIV/NU has interpretively cropped to “This kind can come out only by prayer”, removing any suggestion of fasting being required. Don’t they ever look at the context of what they claim to have translated? Jesus’s Disciples had asked him why they had been unable to cast out a “deaf and mute spirit” from a boy. Now, we know that Jesus’s Disciples prayed by that time [Matthew 6: 5-13] and that they did not fast [Mark 2: 18-19]. So, there is a good possibility that they may indeed have prayed in trying to cast out the spirit. Therefore, it makes logical sense that Jesus’s witnessed response said “… by prayer and fasting”, as in the Majority Text. Likewise, omitting Matthew 17:21, gives a less creditable answer, given the context. So much for the principles of textual criticism: sometimes you need to look beyond the immediate alternatives in front of your eyes for textual support and actually read what’s being said instead of assuming it’s a propagated error.
Jim, I would have to back to which texts have what bit it is just as plausible to say someone added it to follow the very logic you outlined smoothing out the text. It can work either way.
Jim, you do realize that both you and the translators are making interpretive judgment calls. For you to say your view makes more sense of the text because of the context based on what Jesus’ disciples may or may not have done is also an interepretation based on things we just don’t know. You even hint about that in your explanation saying this “may indeed” and “good possibility”…showing me that even in your conclusion you recognize it isn’t bulletproof and is based on some assumptions to connect the dots.
As to the “fasting” part of the verses. The manuscripts that have that come along around 900AD and is consistently missing in earlier manuscripts. If I am overlooking one earlier please let me know. I am basing this on the UBS3 Textual commentary & UBS 3.
It doesn’t compute. It’s more improbable to dream up ‘fasting’ out of nowhere to add to a statement by the Lord (“God forbid!” I hear 1001 early Christian copyist muttering) than to accidently omit a phrase or a sentence in copied text (e.g. copyists, with the best will in the world, can get distracted). Given that there is no need for translation – just copying Greek to Greek by different copyists – it’s highly probable that any errors (additions or deletions) occurring in a Gospel manuscript are without reference to any manuscript of another Gospel: the original error for Matthew 17: 21 occurred independent of the original error for Mark 9: 29. There is just the smidge of a possibility that a copyist for Matthew 17: 21 had read the cropped version of Mark 9: 29, and elided Matthew 17: 21as a preposterous idea given that the other Gospel said that only prayer was necessary.
The Sinai Text is a fake, it was revealed to be a forgery, but they luv the lie and don’t want to hear it, and the textus Vaticanus is no better then a Jehovah’s Witness Bible, it was so bad that it was white washed over and they wrote a novel on it, it is feces and garbage and lies. Wescott and Hort LIED, the higher criticism movement is totally based on lies and people that hated Jesus/God?the Trinity.. Stop falling for the lies… No Paul didn’t carry the KJV with Him, duh, …. lol but the NIV is bad bad bad and full of lies.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZsZLDWWZMs
Good job, Matt. Having read through most of these comments I feel for you having to deal with all the negativity from those who seem to be better experts on Satan and how HE works, than a pure desire for truth, textually and historically.
As a student of textual criticism I for years loved and preferred the NKJV. It wasn’t until I took a hard look at the historical evidence concerning the materials avaliable to the various translators throughout history that I came to a better understanding and appreciation of the accuracy of the earlier manuscripts that weren’t avaliable until recently, (comparatively).
I think many here forget the promise of Christ that he would send a helper that would lead his children to all truth, no matter the translation.
I know read and study the ESV because I prefer accuracy over sentiment. It’s tough because the majority of scripture I’ve memorized is in the NKJV.
Be encouraged! A striving after the truth is a noble cause and (obviously) won’t be accepted by all. Lord bless you!
Thank you Jesse! I sure appreciate your encouraging words and the depth of your study. I have bounced around on translations. I am leaning more toward theNASB right now. My only issue with the ESV is that it is 92% unrevised RSV from the 1950s and I would like to think what we have learned of text and lexicographer over the last 70 years might be helpful!